Finally - A sub that actually works!

Discussion in 'Hi-Fi and General Audio' started by Robbo, Nov 28, 2004.

  1. Robbo

    Robbo

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    As you may know I have been using my ProAc 1SCs for many years and have stuck with them due to their superb midrange and wonderful drive unit integration and coherence. They produce pretty reasonable bass for their size, but of course it is not earth shaking and this lack of deep bass is their only major failing IMO. Over the years, I have had several attempts at using a sub with them, but none of the subs I have tried have truly integrated bass, though some were pretty good like the MJ Ref1. Inevitably I always ended up going back to the speakers sans sub.

    Not any more. I have managed to get my hands on a practically new Velodyne DD12 sub, and to cut to the chase it is far and away the best sub I have ever heard. The 1SC and Velodyne combo produces an astonishingly high level of sound quality which IMO is only beaten by very expensive speakers. They sound absolutely massive! The integration and sense of control and timing you get with this setup is awesome not to mention the sheer bass extension - flat to 15 Hz. It gives a truly visceral quality to any music. The bass is remarkably clean and dynamic too, I am hearing new things in virtually every track I put on. I have never heard deep bass so free from distortion, and it is vastly better than the leaden, thumpy bass quality you get from the likes of REL.

    For those not familiar with Velodyne subs, the DD12 sits fairly high up their range. It is a fairly compact sealed box sub with a massively engineered, servo controlled 12"drive unit which is driven by a 1250W digital amp. Velodyne claim a <1% distortion level at 20 hz at 100db which is very impressive. The real clever thing about the sub though is the digital EQ software built in. The sub comes with a microphone and generates frequency sweeps so it is possible to measure the outputs and equalise the response using a whole host of settings including parametric equalisation.

    I thought it was worth showing the steps taken to set up the sub in my system for the sub connoisseurs our there. These are initial settings, and so things may change as I experiment with other connection methods. (I am currently using the sub outs on the Audio Research.)

    1. Positiong the sub.

    [​IMG]

    I positioned the sub in a spare space between the ProAcs and a little bit away from the corner of the room.

    Close up of sub

    [​IMG]

    The next thing to do was to conect the sub to the Plasma display in order to operate the EQ software. This is a pic of the front page screen

    [​IMG]

    To carry out frequency mesurement, the microphone is placed at the listening position :


    [​IMG]

    First of all, I did a frequency response measurement of the 1SCs without the sub, to see where the best crossover frequency would be. The really surprising thing is that considering their size, the bass response from the little ProAcs is surprisingly deep, there is bass output in right down to 30hz.

    [​IMG]


    I then decided to try crossover frequencies from between 30-40 hz and after some fiddling, ended up with a crossover frequency of 35 hz and a 12db/octave slope (the DD12 allows adjustments from 6 to 48 db/octave).

    [​IMG]

    I then experimented with the parametric equalisation. You can have up to 8 equalisation points at frequencies you choose (by moving the sliders to the frequency you want to adjust) and then you can give up to 6 db gain or 12 db cut at that frquency, and also adjust the Q for that frequency.

    Using the parametric equalisation, I ended up with this frequency plot :

    [​IMG]

    The sub has integrated seamlessly and I have a pretty flat response right down to 15 hz. Note, the peak at 80 hz and the dip from 160-200hz. I may be able to work on these by repositioning the 1SCs, but as I do sit close to the back wall, there are always likely to be some respose uneveness IMO. However, the system sounds so damn good, I dont know whether I will bother.

    As you can probably tell, I am delighted with the results obtained. If anyone is in the market for more bass from their system, I would strongly recommend them trying out a sub from the DD series. These subs are light years ahead of any of the UK manufacturers subs.

    Cheers, Robbo
     
    Robbo, Nov 28, 2004
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  2. Robbo

    PeteH Natural Blue

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    Ye gods, that's a pretty impressive-looking bass response plot :yikes:

    Looks like you might have some problems around 200Hz though - is that big suckout you can see on the plot real?
     
    PeteH, Nov 28, 2004
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  3. Robbo

    merlin

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    Pete,

    I certainly didn't notice any suckouts listening subjectively when Neil knidly invited me over for a listen.

    To put it mildly, the results are impressive. The increase in scale and naturalness in the midrange is just one of the benefits. The bottom end on some dance stuff we tried out showed up notes neither of us had noticed before. The impressive thing is the integration. I found the same at my place but I have downstairs neighbours :D
     
    merlin, Nov 28, 2004
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  4. Robbo

    Robbo

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    Pete,

    As I cant measure above 200 hz I am not sure how much of an issue this is. It's probably related to speaker positiong and me sitting near the back wall. You certainly dont notice anything when listening.
     
    Robbo, Nov 28, 2004
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  5. Robbo

    PeteH Natural Blue

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    Certainly the frequency response plot points to it being pretty awesome - even with very classy headphones you don't often see a response as flat as that to 15Hz and below, and of course then the bottom end has that strangely detached quality you get when you can't feel it. Nice one :)
     
    PeteH, Nov 28, 2004
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  6. Robbo

    I-S Good Evening.... Infidel

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    What a fantastic set-up system velodyne have implemented there. Seriously impressive. Very glad that you've found something you're so happy with Neil. If it doesn't sell, I'll have to have a go with room EQ with the behringer when I move into the new place.
     
    I-S, Nov 28, 2004
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  7. Robbo

    samuelellis

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    that is an absolutely fantastic way way to configure the sub, puts the dials ont he back of my ruark to shame

    is that a real time frequency display?
     
    samuelellis, Nov 28, 2004
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  8. Robbo

    michaelab desafinado

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    Looking good Robbo. Does the microphone come supplied with the sub? Also, does it suggest an EQ setting based on the response graph which you can then tweak or did you have to do that all manually? Either way, impressive results.

    They aren't half pricey though :cry:

    Michael.
     
    michaelab, Nov 28, 2004
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  9. Robbo

    Robbo

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    Yes, it is real time.

    If you are so inclined you can leave it on when listening to music and see what is happening in the bass region!
     
    Robbo, Nov 28, 2004
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  10. Robbo

    sideshowbob Trisha

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    Impressive. Of course, you now need a second one... ;-)

    -- Ian
     
    sideshowbob, Nov 28, 2004
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  11. Robbo

    samuelellis

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    id leave it on just for novelty value :)

    but it actually makes quite a lot of sense being able to see the peaks, i know a lot of people who set up car hifis with a rta so they can get it sounding bang on, just surprised more people dont in home hifi
     
    samuelellis, Nov 28, 2004
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  12. Robbo

    wadia-miester Mighty Rearranger

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    Be quite entertaining with the Harbeths I reckon :cool:
     
    wadia-miester, Nov 28, 2004
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  13. Robbo

    Robbo

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    Mike,

    The microphone comes as standard, and it is of good quality. All of the tuning is done manually, so you have to be prepared to invest quite a bit of time to set it up properly.

    Regarding the price, I think it is actually rather good value for money considering the fantastic performance it can give. It completely pisses on any of the subs that the likes of REL produce in terms of ease of integration, low distortion and sheer musicality. Once you hear it you will understand why.
     
    Robbo, Nov 28, 2004
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  14. Robbo

    Robbo

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    I'd hate to think of the sonic destruction I'd be able to wreak with a pair of these things. One is more than enough, believe me! It can move serious amounts of air.
     
    Robbo, Nov 28, 2004
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  15. Robbo

    michaelab desafinado

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    I'm sure it is. Still, £2.5K (£2350 if you're happy with black) is a lot of money for a sub. You've got to weigh that against what speakers you could get for the price of the sub plus + speakers. 1250W digital amp - makes the 500W of the top of the range REL looks rather silly doesn't it, afterall, you can't move serious amounts of air in a controlled manner without serious power :)

    Michael.
     
    michaelab, Nov 28, 2004
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  16. Robbo

    merlin

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    Michael, that's what we were doing yesterday. And IMO there is not a £4K speaker on the market that can do what that combo manages, indeed it's likely that you would need to double that to get a bottom end approaching the Velodyne's capabilities.

    You need the power because it's both a small sealed box and is EQ'ed. Most of the Rel's are ported and seem to be able to get away with less power. But the difference is very marked indeed.
     
    merlin, Nov 28, 2004
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  17. Robbo

    Robbo

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    Fair point. Having excellent satellites is a must before you even consider this sub. Yesterday we were trying to think of a floorstander that would beat the performamce of the 1SC+DD12 combo. We coudnt come up with much below about £5K. It's the digital equalisation that is the clincher - many big speakers can't hope to give the same level of bass performance in my room without equalisation. they'd overpower it in the 40-50 hz region.
     
    Robbo, Nov 28, 2004
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  18. Robbo

    michaelab desafinado

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    Good point about the EQ. Hmm....I might keep my eye out for any s/h bargains....

    Do you know if the Velos support being hooked up two ways at the same time? I'd want to do high level for stereo use and also have the line level from the AV receiver for HT use. I guess the use of presets and being remote controlled means I could just have a music and a movie setup and quickly switch between them.

    Michael.
     
    michaelab, Nov 28, 2004
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  19. Robbo

    wadia-miester Mighty Rearranger

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    Yep, Its certainly made a huge difference to Robbo's system, its almost tight too, excellent presence and intergration.
    I feel Robbo won't be long before the neighbours gang up on him
     
    wadia-miester, Nov 28, 2004
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  20. Robbo

    michaelab desafinado

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    "It's almost tight too" - with compliments like that, who needs critics? :D

    Michael.
     
    michaelab, Nov 28, 2004
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