How will this work ?

If I may use myself as an example .....rather than muddy the waters with hypothetical products poster and situations.

We have the announcement at the top of the page regarding trade products ........

If a user of one of my builds [as the moderate mod has been and has recommended to others] see a question by AN Other poster and thinks "ah yes just the jobbie zanash's latest gizmo will solve the posters problem".....how will he be able to inform said poster of it, if not by the open forum or pm ?

As was the case if I had an pm from AN Other asking about my gizmo's availability and price I've usually contacted them via the pm system with the information .....though since having a "little local difficulty" I've only replied with a " please contact me via my email" ........

I can't quite get my head rounds how the trade section would help in this case .....what am I missing ?

would it be possible to have more guidance maybe an example or two posted by the people who thought of this new restriction.

Also does this mean that no products still in production can be mentioned on the forum or am I reading more into this than was intended ......

A fatkat with a small brain .......thats a little confused

 

It means that if you are in the trade then you cannot advertise or tout for business outside the trade ad section. If someone PM's you or asks a direct question than I would think that would be acceptable. I have probably been guilty of this type of thing in the past. Now it's official we will all have to tow the line.

I think in the past there have been people who have championed other peoples products and given an opportunity given them a free advert every time something about a related product is mentioned.

I suppose everything in moderation. Don't tout for business and advertise and write what you want about your products in the Trade section.

 

Thanks for the response Paul. That's exactly what we envisaged. We don't want the constant pm xxxxxxx and he'll sort you out. We are planning to trial a different system with the trade ads. We'd like to give all trade members a space where people can ask questions, and the trade member has control over the content on their thread (but only their thread!). We've just got to make sure it's workable, that the will is there from trade members, and the significant majority who are not trade don't object. I've also considered allowing trade members the opportunity to blog as part of the ZG experience. Maybe we could have links to these on the front page. If this proves successful maybe trade members could be invited to contribute as they do at Wigwam and PFM. This is a way off though I feel. The benefits would have to be there for everybody.

I'm not looking to cause people problems. We are however trying to resolve the current situation which many people find unsatisfactory. I have no objection to anyone responding to a PM that is sent. But I don't want unsolicited mail selling things being sent around. I have received these myself, so they're not a figment of an overwrought imagination.

The most complained about issue though is that of the person who constantly suggests that people contact someone. I'm hoping that we can lose that.

Any other comments are welcome. I'm very conscious that ZG isn't as busy as it used to be, and suggestions as to what to do about it will be listened to seriously.

 

Bearing in mind LTs recent comment, before I am accused of being overly sensitive, was that aimed at me LS?

 

It's aimed at anyone who does it.

 

What a diplomat!!





a few points running through my mind just now;

1) If it was a problem I think it ws a shame nobody had a quiet word.

eg "give it a break" or similar,

before it got to (seemingly) problem proportions!

2) When I first joined2/3 years agoo, I was looking to try cables, I was MORE than happy to be pointed in the direction of Pete.

3) Pete has been enormously helpful over the last couple of years with (totally free....though some seemingly doubt that) technical advise....simply from his enthusiasm for the subject, which he wants to share!

Perhapts I am mssing something here but I can't help feeling its a shame if you can't recommend someone like that to help.


BUT,, YOu're the boss!


'nuff said





(thanks very much!)



cheers,


David




(edit; maybe I've said enough here but I would like to add that Pete was keen to come around to my place (about 100 miles...I agve him fuel money) as he felt he could make big improvements to my kit set up....which are difficult to communicate over the e mails. He the only one who has done that )

 

You can recommend and comment upon whoever and whatever but in the right place

I'm interested in getting responses to the possible changes to the trade rooms. Any comments from anyone?

 

thanks ......for the kind words.

I personally try not to tout[matter of opinion!] but have recently seen and reported a couple of dreadful examples to the mods....

but if people want to contact me via a pm thats by definition private, who's to decide what they can and can't say..... unless of course the pm system is not private and is currently being shall we say monitored ?


I look forward to seeing the proposed examples ....but should they not already be posted or is this an after thought ?

As you know I'm always able to offer an opinion.....I'll go see what the changes are in the trade section

 

I don't mind recomendations to someone else (i.e. what davidF does) - but I'm not a great fan of when someone comes on here asking for advice and some people always ask them to try my product even if it isn't wants always required (i.e. modded 2496...)... but I guess it's a double edged sword is some cases...

but if the traders are paying to advertise - then maybe they should be able to?

 

They're not up and running yet Pete. Mark will put it into place when the logistics have been sorted out. The reason they are not already posted is that they require changes to the forum infrastructure. This takes time and expertise. We will contact all members we know to be in the trade and offer them the opportunity to have their own self moderated thread in the trade area as soon as we are able to. This however depends on it being feasible and manageable within the VB system. If it's not we'll have to consider other options. We are however in agreement as a moderation team that we need to make changes.

Personally I like the blog idea, it could equally be extended to other areas like the legendary 'Julian's speaker build'. Like all ideas though it requires people willing to spend the time bringing them to fruition. I've also considered wikis, but they also seem to have unlimited potential for argument and conflict!

Any other suggestions from anyone else?

PMs are by definition private, but if a rule is there, it is likely that abuses will be reported. It isn't possible for anyone to read anyone elses PMs unless there has been a password breach.

 

Any other comments are welcome. I'm very conscious that ZG isn't as busy as it used to be, and suggestions as to what to do about it will be listened to seriously.[/QUOTE]


You know partly why that was ...you were informed by myself on behalf of a number of members and others. Its up to you to act on the information provided ..why its taken over six months for any substantive action to occur only the mods know. No body wants to spend all day at work and then get bad mouthed or worse in there leisure time.

As to suggestions rename or add a section as a trade area/forum rather than trade adds as this will be misleading under the new regime.

I also notice that the articles section vanished awhile ago ......I would often point people who contacted me via the web to that section. You receive a number of new members [25+ that I know of] via this, once vanished this source of visitors has dried up. ......I had to move the information to another forum, where they now get the people so directed and so gain new members by that route.


ok look forward to seeing things ......but you doing this backwards imo this should already be setup ..then tell people to comply ?

 

Traders don't pay to advertise on ZG. Other forums do charge. Therefore I don't feel beholden to offer them advertising space. You have Mr Cat hit a nail on the head I feel. I want to be able to draw upon their expertise without their products unduly colouring the ZG forum.

 

Pete I'm not raking over those coals, your first point is as far as I can see spurious and not particularly relevant to this thread. There is a counter argument to yours and these changes are a response to that. Your argument revolves around personalities who have no right to a reply.

We're currently looking to change the ethos. I've no objection to changing the name of that part of the forum, but lets make sure the idea is workable first. I don't want to promise you the moon, and then sell you a turd.

The articles (static content) was removed as no-one had updated it for about 2 years! No-one had the time to keep updating it. This is where my blog idea could fit. The most recent 5 udates could appear there. I don't however have the skills to do this myself, so I'm relying upon a vision being able to become reality, then there being enough willing bloggers! If only a couple of people want to do it it will be futile. I think we probably need 4 or 5 for it to be meaningful. I don't want ZG to become a mouthpiece for a few people or a particular viewpoint, I want a variety of interesting and useful views to be represented.

 

going back to the forum not being as busy as it used to be...I think most hifi forums have suffered from this too - the wam's more quiet these days but pinkfish seems to have got busier (but there are a lot of threads about photogtraphy!)

avforums is as busy as ever - but they're quite diverse too...I know it's not appropiate to diverse like what they have but we do need more people starting new threads and not just arguing about silly stuff really...

but it does seem that true hifi is at a all time low with new technologies like the squeezebox and people being disheartened about certain products / companies etc...

 

The first thing that struck me on reading the new addition is that it should say in better language what "touting" is. For example, it could say proactive marketing via PM is forbidden, but responding a to a query received by PM is of course always permitted, even if it relates to sales or business.

Edit: PS you also have to make up your mind whether in "The most complained about issue though is that of the person who constantly suggests that people contact someone. I'm hoping that we can lose that." you actually mean "ever" not "constantly" - or are you intending for a pattern to emerge before taking action?

 

seems reasonable

oh ? you said you did not know why numbers had dropped off so I'm offering an explaination of a probable cause. You [the mods] had the information provided in my pm on or about 1st october 2007 titled " issues that maybe you know about or not" ..., it was easily verified but the situation was at best [from my postion] allowed to drift.......

I've made my point, you knew my feelings ...... and I shan't mention them again [maybe !] there was an element of humour but this never comes across well.

back to the issue at hand .......

If you were people were getting unwelcome pm's then the obvious [to me] answer is a simple ban on the promulgator and of course his computer ip [I'm no expert in this] so they can't set up another membership.

As I said I look forward to seeing the new trade section ....

 

Thankyou.

 

I think you're right Mr Cat. I also think the arguments have become rather circular. We've had a fair few years to dig ourselves into a trench. I joined HFC in about 1998! so I guess I've had about 10 years to decide on my particular viewpoint I've also spent a lot of money and am quite happy with where I am now. So I spend less time here, and more in the music rooms of various fora. ZGs best bit was always the music rooms, so does nobody listen to anything interesting any more?

It also strikes me that fora tend to have a standpoint that members subscribe to. PFM has always been about value for money. Tony may shout at me, but I feel it initially started off as a flat earth place, but it's grown a long way beyond that now. The WAM also has it's own personality. I suspect that ZG has slightly lost its way, and has recently become an ideal host for cable arguments.

The other issue is that most fora share their posters! I speak to the same people here as I do at PFM.

I'm looking for a different way forward, and something different to the other fora. I'm hoping we can bring about a few small changes that will make ZG the community it once was. I suspect that means that we all have to decide what it is we want it to stand for.....

Over to you all

 

Thanks Steve, we'll consider that.

With regard to your second comment, I'd like people to stop recommending their own products or other people constantly recommending them on their behalf in the main forum. If we can get the trade room right, there should be no need at all for anyone to advertise a traders wares as there will be a space for the trader to self publicise . If there's a lack of clarity there I'll look at it again.

 

Good point .....but I read it as all pm related to sales or business maybe I'm missreading what was said ?