Ittok LVII antiskate problem

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bertw

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Does anyone know please of anywhere that can service the anti-skate on an Ittok LVII in the UK?

Audio Origami told me they don't do this work and whilst I'm waiting for Linn to get back to me in the hope they can help, I have been told they don't do this either.

My problem is that my Ittok now needs the anti-skate set to max (the 3 grams setting) to compensate for a tracking weight of 1.8 grams. I did know it was off but it wasn't this far out when I last checked it a couple of years ago, so it rather looks like the spring is loosing its effectiveness and needs re-setting/re-calibrating or replacing.

How do I know it's so far off? My turntable, an LP12, has just had an official Linn dealer service with a new AT33PTG fitted/set-up at that time. It is all sitting at home on a levelled Mana Acoustics Reference table. I run-in the cartridge for 40+ hours before setting the anti-skate, which I set dynamically, using a record I have that has no grooves at all on one side. I set my desired tracking weight and then adjust the anti-skate until the arm when lowered onto the spinning disc neither moves inward nor outward but simply stays put at the point where it was lowered.

Can you help with any advice please?

Regards - Bert
 
Hi Bertw

Your method of setting antiskate seems a bit wrong.

The antiskate is a force applied to counteract the force of the arm being 'forced' toward the centre of the record (to put it very simply). By doing what you do, there is no opposing force to counteract.

Am I wrong?
 
test ....

set anti skate to zero ..nil play record ..I mean one with music on !

what do you hear ?

I used to have an at33 many years ago ...it seemed to be fairly impervious to the anti skate ...ie regardless of setting it seemed to work equally as well ...though the arm was a adc alt 1 ...who I beleive made the basics for linn ?

To be honest there are better arms out there ...if the anti skate has had it ...it might have done you a favour !!
 
robM said:
Hi Bertw

Your method of setting antiskate seems a bit wrong.

The antiskate is a force applied to counteract the force of the arm being 'forced' toward the centre of the record (to put it very simply). By doing what you do, there is no opposing force to counteract.

Am I wrong?
Click to expand...

Firstly, let me say that I don't have any technical knowledge as to what is happening or why, so I could be wrong here and if I am I'd be please to be enlightened.

I thought the anti-skate was supposed to be set so that the arm had no significant tendency to move inward or outward when playing a record i.e. the stylus should not be trying to push against either wall of the groove but should sit in the middle with an equal force on both groove walls. That in practice a slight tendency to move inward was OK, as that would help it to site in the groove but that everything should be set-up quite close to neutral.

My understanding was/is that as a disc with grooves will obviously trap the stylus and carry it inward, a blank vinyl disc was in effect the only way to judge at home if the anti-skate was set correctly for any given VTF. To try and achieve this I have always tried to get the arm to resist any tendency to move inward or outward when lowered onto a spinning blank vinyl disc and have always presumed this was a good indication that the arm was set close to neutral as far as anti-skate is concerned.

What I can say with absolute certainty is that with the blank vinyl disc a low anti-skate results in the arm moving inward and a high anti-skate results in the arm moving outward when the stylus comes into contact with it. That the higher I set the VTF the quicker the arm moves toward the centre of the disc.

Any feedback will be appreciated, so your thoughts/ideas and comments please.
 
I suppose the easiest way to check if your anti-skate mechanism is working is to set the arm up so it's at a 'balanced state' 0 grams above the record surface with the anti-skate turned to 0 as well.
Turn the anti-skate up to max slowly. If the tonearm moves toward the arm rest...it works!

The amount of anti-skate you need to apply can be found by using a good test disc and checking/listening out for distortion when playing the track.
 
bertw said:
Firstly, let me say that I don't have any technical knowledge as to what is happening or why, so I could be wrong here and if I am I'd be please to be enlightened.

I thought the anti-skate was supposed to be set so that the arm had no significant tendency to move inward or outward when playing a record i.e. the stylus should not be trying to push against either wall of the groove but should sit in the middle with an equal force on both groove walls. That in practice a slight tendency to move inward was OK, as that would help it to site in the groove but that everything should be set-up quite close to neutral.

My understanding was/is that as a disc with grooves will obviously trap the stylus and carry it inward, a blank vinyl disc was in effect the only way to judge at home if the anti-skate was set correctly for any given VTF. To try and achieve this I have always tried to get the arm to resist any tendency to move inward or outward when lowered onto a spinning blank vinyl disc and have always presumed this was a good indication that the arm was set close to neutral as far as anti-skate is concerned.

What I can say with absolute certainty is that with the blank vinyl disc a low anti-skate results in the arm moving inward and a high anti-skate results in the arm moving outward when the stylus comes into contact with it. That the higher I set the VTF the quicker the arm moves toward the centre of the disc.

Any feedback will be appreciated, so your thoughts/ideas and comments please.
Click to expand...

Well I do have some technical knowledge of this area which is why I advised you as I did on another forum you asked this question on. Your understanding of what bias consists of is essentially correct but the mechanism you describe, by which it is caused, is rather an oversimplification. In addition, a blank disc is not a true representation of the forces applied to the stylus when actually tracking a modulated groove (playing music). In addition, in an ideal world, the bias force would vary as the stylus traversed the disc and even depending on the specific groove modulation at any one time - stylus profile also plays a significant role.

If you do a wider search on the internet you will find that this has been a widely discussed area on some forums (usually those more specifically focussed on LP playback).
 
An important point that I think is worth making at this juncture is that as far as playing music goes (the actual point of it all) my whole system sounds great with no sonic nasties. It was just the fact that I had to set the anti-skate at max - 3 grams whilst the VTF was 1.8 - to get the arm to stay where I lowered it that was worrying. It would seem from posts here and on a couple of other (similar) sites that I may be worrying needlessly.

Time to buy a test disc and try some listening tests with that perhaps.

Thanks to everyone for your input, much appreciated.
 
The importance of trusting your ears, I underestimated my ability to hear small differences but won't again!

As detailed in earlier postings on this topic I used a blank/uncut album as a test disc to check the anti-skate on my Ittok arm. To get the arm to stay put (neither moving inward nor outward) when I lowered the stylus onto the spinning uncut disc I had to set the anti-skate at 3 grams for a tracking force (VTF) of 1.8 grams. This seemed to me to indicate the anti-skate was way-off, it wasn't.

Having noted several comments that I should set the anti-skate on my Ittok by ear, I decided to ignore my belief that I wouldn't be able to tell any differences and 'give it a go' last night. It was ââ'¬â€œ quite literally ââ'¬â€œ a jaw dropping experience.

I used the track Good Morning Little School Girl from my copy of the Muddy Waters album 'The Folk Singer' (a high quality pressing on 180 gram vinyl). It is a superb recording which has Muddy's voice in the centre of the sound-stage with guitar to one side, drums to the other and the bass clear but relatively quiet in the mix. Overall there's quite a lot going on in this track but it's a stripped-down sound which is neither busy nor loud but much more leaning toward rhythm and pace. An ideal test track in my opinion.

I played the track with the anti-skate at 3 grams and noticed that the voice was off-centre, a little to the left of the sound-stage. I then backed-off the anti-skate to about 2.2 grams and listened to the track again, low-and-behold (this was the jaw dropping moment) I could quite clearly hear that the voice had shifted somewhat toward the centre of the sound-stage. I then repeated the experiment with the anti-skate at 1.5 grams and sure enough Muddy's voice was now to the right of centre of the sound-stage. I then upped the anti-skate to a smidgen under 2 grams and Muddy's voice was dead centre but with an added bonus that I had not expected. Quite a few of the small details in the mix, things like fingers on the guitar strings etc. were in somewhat sharper focus, more clearly defined in the mix than they had been previously.

To say I was surprised at the above would be quite an understatement and many thanks to everyone for their replies to my query, they have all helped me to realise the anti-skate on my Ittok is working fine and that I can trust my ears and my own judgement rather more than I did.
 
Great result ........

I often found that getting the best results from test disc, didn't necessarily correspond to better sound !

I've always preferred to set the ball park figure suggested for say tracking weight etc and then vary it little about that mean figure. As you noted in the right position the music will suddenly come alive.

Now you can start on the can of worms called vta or setting the linn up yourself !
 

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