Linn - love it /hate it/don't care I'll argue anyway thread!

flatpopely said:
I really have no idea what you mean by this post Lindsay?
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Ok a quick re-cap:

Cyp21 mentioned "You could Join the Linn forum they might have a few ideas and someone might be able to advise you some good upgrade advice."

I responded by saying that the Linn Forum would not be the best place for unbiased advice due to certain similarities with religious cults.

You responded with "Actually for a manufacturer forum its very open if you accept that Linn makes the LP12 and it's their forum."

So I responded with a suggestion that I could put it to the test by starting a "what shall I buy?" thread on the Linn Forum and a few other forums - followed by listening to some recommended kit from each forum.

I have a theory that the Linn Forum members will only recommend Linn kit and will not come up with any alternatives from other manufacturers. I also have a theory that kit from other manufacturers will offer better sound at a given price level. Or that kit from other manufacturers is just as good in a swings and roundabouts kind of way but cheaper than the Linn kit. If these theories turn out to be based on reality then I'd say that it's fair comment to suggest that the Linn forum is not the best place for unbiased advice on tt upgrades.
 
I would also say Lindsay that you mention theory a lot!

Is it just me or is ZG becoming the 'mouthpiece for failed individuals'?

I mean come on FFS guys, some of the anti FE stuff going on is borderline lunacy, all bile, hate and no facts.

I don't come here that often but when I see a thread that interests me it's taken over by the 'blogs of war' and the thread is crapped by 'FE is all bullshit and the LP12 is a wobbly piece of junk'.
 
Some advice is more biased than others. Some advice is sub-optimum compared to others.

EG: If advice A is "Buy this for £2k" whilst advice B is "Buy that for £1k" and the £1k kit turns out to be just as good (or even better) in a swings and roundabouts way as the £2k kit then advice A is clearly sub-optimum.


And also in my proposed inter-forum advice experiment there'd be nothing to stop anyone repeating my kit listening tests and reporting back what they found to determine if I was giving sub-optimum advice or not.
 
flatpopely said:
Rob, what FE miss-selling bonanza? I just dont get it. Just because we bought LP12s instead of Jap DDs in the UK does not make the salesman wrong. The OP asked for upgrade advice on an LP12 and indeed mentioned another FE brand, Rega. Can we keep the petty 'I hate you' sentiments out of it please. I was not and am not brainwashed, I just happen to like what my system does. If others disagree that's fine but DO NOT presume to question my ability to choose what I like.
Just as I would not call someone who bought a valve 300B amp instead of a NAP250 a brainwashed sheep, I would expect the same respect for my opinion.
I have experience of the OPs upgrade choice and did spend £1000 on a Cirkus and Ittok, it was well worthwhile and my opinion is no less valid than those who hate FE.
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Firstly, Rega are not and never were 'flat earth' and Roy Gandy is most insistent on the matter.

Perhaps you were not buying audio from certain Uk dealers at the time?

I was.

Appalling sales tactics were rife. Slagging non Linn equipment during the dem was actually in progress while showering praise on the Linn kit was the usual tactic.
Dealers would actually accuse listeners of 'not listening for the right things' if they dared to prefer some other product.

I have 1st hand experience of it so don't tell me it didn't exist.
I clearly recall being played a £50k Linn active system at Billy V in London - despite the fact I went to specifically buy a pair or £400 Rega speakers - and was told I didn't appreciate the important aspects of music when I commented that the bass level from the active crossover was way to high and swamping the room.
A booming mess, but apparently I wasn't focussing on the tune!

Those experiences were common to many people and it was mis-selling.

As to your own system, I don't care what you use or what you prefer.
I have commented on what is responsible - IMO - for what constituted the flat earth sound and why it gained such popularity in the 80s and 90s.
FWIW I don't actually think you own a typical flat earth system at all these days.
Your LP12 no longer is (not saying it is better or worse), your amplifiers are neutral and your speakers are sonically closer to a Spendor BC1 than any Linn box from the flat earth era.
 
flatpopely said:
I would also say Lindsay that you mention theory a lot!

Is it just me or is ZG becoming the 'mouthpiece for failed individuals'?

I mean come on FFS guys, some of the anti FE stuff going on is borderline lunacy, all bile, hate and no facts.

I don't come here that often but when I see a thread that interests me it's taken over by the 'blogs of war' and the thread is crapped by 'FE is all bullshit and the LP12 is a wobbly piece of junk'.
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I mentioned the word theory a lot to try to avoid someone in a pedantic frame of mind coming along and picking holes in the words that I've used. And also because I like to take a somewhat scientific approach whereby I propose a theory and then gather evidence to support or contradict that theory.


Are there any "anti FE" posts inparticular that you feel are "borderline lunacy all bile hate and no facts"?



My advice in post #3 of this thread was based on my own extensive listening tests of my own LP12 in my own system against other tt's as well as some listening tests in different systems.


I don't think that FE is all bullshit. I like the Flat Earth sound - or at least my definition of the good aspects of the Flat Earth sound. I also like the good aspects of the Round Earth sound too.

I don't think the LP12 is a wobbly piece of junk. I'd probably rather have one than a Rega P7. The LP12 is a good tt. However, there are at least half a dozen tt's I'd rather have in preference to the LP12. Ones that I've listened to and prefer the sound of.
 
Lindsay -the problem is you will never know which advice is optimal or sub-optimal unless you try every suggestion for yourself which isn't practical.

My point is you're no better off using these independent forums vs a manufacturer's forum for advice...except the manufacturer should give you a refund if he advised you wrong. I doubt any of our fellow hobbyists would though ;-)
 
flatpopely said:
I would also say Lindsay that you mention theory a lot!

Is it just me or is ZG becoming the 'mouthpiece for failed individuals'?

I mean come on FFS guys, some of the anti FE stuff going on is borderline lunacy, all bile, hate and no facts.

I don't come here that often but when I see a thread that interests me it's taken over by the 'blogs of war' and the thread is crapped by 'FE is all bullshit and the LP12 is a wobbly piece of junk'.
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Andrew, did you ever read any of the pro Linn mags?

Shocking stuff in them.

Interesting that many of the scribes writing the bile at the time spun on their heels and promptly started recommending kit they'd slagged once the arse fell out of the FE market. And I really mean slagged - anything you read in todays press or on here is nothing compared to some of the shit that passed for informed journalism.

If you'd like some evidence of borderline lunacy I'll gladly post up a few choice excerpts.
 
RobHolt said:
Firstly, Rega are not and never were 'flat earth' and Roy Gandy is most insistent on the matter.

Perhaps you were not buying audio from certain Uk dealers at the time?

I was.

Appalling sales tactics were rife. Slagging non Linn equipment during the dem was actually in progress while showering praise on the Linn kit was the usual tactic.
Dealers would actually accuse listeners of 'not listening for the right things' if they dared to prefer some other product.

I have 1st hand experience of it so don't tell me it didn't exist.
I clearly recall being played a £50k Linn active system at Billy V in London - despite the fact I went to specifically buy a pair or £400 Rega speakers - and was told I didn't appreciate the important aspects of music when I commented that the bass level from the active crossover was way to high and swamping the room.
A booming mess, but apparently I wasn't focussing on the tune!

Those experiences were common to many people and it was mis-selling.

As to your own system, I don't care what you use or what you prefer.
I have commented on what is responsible - IMO - for what constituted the flat earth sound and why it gained such popularity in the 80s and 90s.
FWIW I don't actually think you own a typical flat earth system at all these days.
Your LP12 no longer is (not saying it is better or worse), your amplifiers are neutral and your speakers are sonically closer to a Spendor BC1 than any Linn box from the flat earth era.
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Sounds like you ran into a bad dealer. I know it's hard to separate the two but don't blame the manufacturer. They have little control over what happens between visits and unless someone reports poor service directly to them.
 
Rob, in addition I would add that the 'hate mail' against FE manufacturers on here is no different to what you claim happened by FE dealers against non FE brands.
 
flatpopely said:
Rob, you could point the same mis-selling at Comet etc.
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Doesn't make it right Andrew.

There are good dealers who will not try to unduly arm-twsit the buyer and let them listen quietly, to music they enjoy and but according their own choice of priorities.
Such dealers existed back in the day but there was huge polarisation between the good and bad ones.
 
flatpopely said:
Rob, in addition I would add that the 'hate mail' against FE manufacturers on here is no different to what you claim happened by FE dealers against non FE brands.
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One manufacturer from where I'm sitting.
They clearly upset a lot of people.

Karma.

No attacks on Onix, Creek, Naim, Nytech etc, which indicates to me that there is no rabid anti-FE bais, just discussion which happens not to favour that approach and is very critical of it.
The Linn thing is really a different issue and mostly a historic one.
 
Dave Simpson said:
Sounds like you ran into a bad dealer. I know it's hard to separate the two but don't blame the manufacturer. They have little control over what happens between visits and unless someone reports poor service directly to them.
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Dave they trained them to do that and threatened to remove their agency if they didn't. Part of their dealer contract was to set up a room with a LP12 fully loaded and full Isobarik active system in it, and all customers were obliged to listen to it before other equipment was demonstrated or sold. Supposedly to plant a seed of excellence (in reality a seed of bullshit brainwash) into the customer to give him a target and an aspiration.

You lived in another Linn world in the US.
 
RobHolt said:
Doesn't make it right Andrew.

There are good dealers who will not try to unduly arm-twsit the buyer and let them listen quietly, to music they enjoy and but according their own choice of priorities.
Such dealers existed back in the day but there was huge polarisation between the good and bad ones.
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And were the majority FE dealers?

I suspect not.
 
Richard Dunn said:
Dave they trained them to do that and threatened to remove their agency if they didn't. Part of their dealer contract was to set up a room with a LP12 fully loaded and full Isobarik active system in it, and all customers were obliged to listen to it before other equipment was demonstrated or sold. Supposedly to plant a seed of excellence (in reality a seed of bullshit brainwash) into the customer to give him a target and an aspiration.

You lived in another Linn world in the US.
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Please can you publish this contract on here, would make interesting reading. Assuming you can it's still just a sales technique, grow a pair! You should work in video conferencing; although I suspect the bullshit would drive you away.
 
Richard Dunn said:
Dave they trained them to do that and threatened to remove their agency if they didn't. Part of their dealer contract was to set up a room with a LP12 fully loaded and full Isobarik active system in it, and all customers were obliged to listen to it before other equipment was demonstrated or sold. Supposedly to plant a seed of excellence (in reality a seed of bullshit brainwash) into the customer to give him a target and an aspiration.

You lived in another Linn world in the US.
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If that's true, I did live in another world. I still find it difficult to believe someone has spoken up until now regarding "planting the seed." We were told specifically by Linn to avoid upselling unlike a RE manufacturer who I won't mention here.

I would also like to see a contract that required customers hearing a Linn system of any sort prior to audtioning other gear. The US dealer's contract had nothing of the sort in it.
 

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