Manufacturers on the web: a double edged sword?

I worked through a similar problem to this one in a photography forum I was involved with: some of the most knowledgeable and community-minded photographers contributed to it becoming the go-to place for information. The absence of big egos and warped attitudes gave it an uncommonly good signal-to-noise ratio: people were polite and well informed and all was well.

Over the years, these smart people pooled their expertise and came up with some really interesting things that other people found useful enough to buy. Some products emerged directly from the wellspring of shared expertise. But, overnight, the people who developed those commodities became 'Trade' and the moderators had to deal with the dilemma of commercial bias: could the forum continue to discuss those projects now they were available for sale, without that being considered promotion?

Personally, I want to read informed opinion, not armchair speculation. And the best informed 'experts' are usually those smart enough to make stuff: those in 'The Trade'. I'll accept a bit of self-promotion if the signal-to-noise ratio is high enough. What is far more pernicious - an indefensible waste of bandwidth - is the attitude problem.

Someone can be terribly bright and yet still be a completely combative tosser.

Web history has already shown that forums lose their way, not because of trade influence, but because they fill up with personally litigious dross instead of honest, open, informed discussion.

Purely trade forums are always toothless: genuine debate is hobbled by moderator censorship. Purely amateur forums, conversely, often become bear pits.

The best forums combine an intelligent mix of declared trade and open-minded enthusiasts. They only work well when everyone is passionate about the subject and prepared to learn; when everyone is considerate of everyone else; when everyone is free to express their opinion and subject it to cogent counter-argument; and when no-one is looking to further the cult of their own mystique.
 
There is an issue here, "FREE ADVICE" consultation on peoples quaries on their minor or major problems can become quite time consuming specially when they did not bought the goods from you, however i do belive as a dealer in this trade it is my duty to try to help as much as i can regardless of where or the make is being brought from, if i can help i will,
nando.
 
That's a fair measure of the degree to which trade bias is a problem: do you help people who aren't buying your products?

Let's take this one step further: how do you handle a situation in which a customer seeks your advice, and you know the right product for them is sold by a competitor? Do you steer them away, losing a sale that you might otherwise gain by bending the truth?

If it's tough to do the right thing, your contribution to a forum will be biased. I do know of several dealers who pass this test, but they're a rare breed.
 
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hubsand said:
That's a fair measure of the degree to which trade bias is a problem: do you help people who aren't buying your products?

Let's take this one step further: how do you handle a situation in which a customer seeks your advice, and you know the right product for them is sold by a competitor? Do you steer them away, losing a sale that you might otherwise gain by bending the truth?

If it's tough to do the right thing, your contribution to a forum will be biased. I do know of several dealers who pass this test, but they're a rare breed.
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no i will not be bias, having been in retail since 1973 i went through almost mose products there for i know all manufacturers, yes i will help if anyone wants me to without prejudice or bias, i leave bias to tape machines,
nando.
 
nando said:
no i will not be bias, having been in retail since 1973 i went through almost mose products there for i know all manufacturers, yes i will help if anyone wants me to without prejudice or bias, i leave bias to tape machines,
nando.
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I think Mandy Rice Davies made a quote that fits this perfectly.
 
Manufacturers on the web are subject to attempted gang rapes as can be obvious on some threads here and loads at Pink Fish, so why should they be constructive, most of the sensible ones just give you a wide berth, perverse ones like me who like a good argument will join in winding up the people who deserve it and just playing with the clammering idiots.

But that is such a small percentage of a forums membership as to be insignificant, and yet it is they who set the tone and make the lurking majority afraid to take or make a view in case they become a victim of yet another on-line gang rape. Until these people are reigned in then forums will never serve the purpose they are capable of.
 
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Suitably reigned-in.

New thread started.

But:

"perverse ones like me who like a good argument will join in winding up the people who deserve it and just playing with the clammering idiots. "

That talk and online behaviour only makes matters worse, and turns you into a target for any shit that happens to be flying past.
 
RobHolt said:
Suitably reigned-in.

New thread started.

But:

"perverse ones like me who like a good argument will join in winding up the people who deserve it and just playing with the clammering idiots. "

That talk and online behaviour only makes matters worse, and turns you into a target for any shit that happens to be flying past.
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Yer! I know Rob but I was born like it :rolleyes:
 
Richard, if you don't like my use of the word plastic you are welcome to 'ignore it'. The reason I used it initially was because I had no idea whatsoever what your cases were actually made of, I didn't know if they were a specific trademarked material like Perspex or Lexan, some unbranded polycarbonate or just good, old, reliable acrylic sheet.

I didn't wish to appear presumptuous and call it by a branded name that it wasn't made from, so I used the correct general term for the class of materials it appears to come from- plastic.

Trust me on this, if I was trying to infer inferiority I would have called it something like 'cheap, useless, plastic offcuts'. I wouldn't waste my time trying to infer something based on the potential, mental, material bias's of people I've never met who frequent this web site. That entire construct is fanciful in the extreme and solely a product of your mind. Giving your unwillingness to let the matter go one could potentially infer that it has touched a nerve with you, brushing against a somewhat guilty conscious perhaps?

In none of my posts regarding topics that you have participated in have I ever discussed you, as opposed to the topic, until such time as you have posted directly at me, and made claims about the reasons for my posts rather than simply answering the questions as they have been put to you.

Over however long it is that we have been cross posting on various websites I've only ever asked you questions or for clarification on matters that I and many others consider to be contrary to your expressed viewpoint. Sometimes I might pick you up on things, other times, like the melting point of acrylic and how it can be manufactured, I don't even bother, especially if it's obvious you are out of your depth. You'd rather fight with someone who questions your viewpoint than justify it, and it is that alone which ensures you are almost alwasy in the shit with someone on some forum somewhere.
 
Two issues here - forum moderation policy and the specifics of case materials and what they are to be called.

On the latter, I've much sympathy with Richard's position.
I wouldn't refer to a Gyro turntable as having a plastic plinth, or the Funk people as making plastic TT mats, Roksan as using plastic headshells on their tonearm etc.
So I do think that constant referral to NVA cases as plastic is a cheap piss-take, sorry.

We've covered moderation recently at length and so this is going over old ground, but too rigid a policy on posts that veer to the personal just comes across as Stalinist and anti free speech. The reality might be different in some cases, but that's how it looks to most posters and heavily censured forums fall flat pretty quickly IMO, or turn into blogs.

If a post is solely aimed at antagonising a contributor, with little or no comment on the thread subject under discussion, then of course action can be taken.
This is seldom the case however and you find that most posts that get personal are also still on topic, so they start addressing the poster but about the subject. Often the poster is inseparable from the subject. In those cases it must always be a judgment call and light touch moderation should come first as the solution IMO, and I think the others on the team would broadly agree.
I've certainly adopted a more laid back approach to moderation over the years.
I recall sending a PM to Tony on PFM about 8 or so years ago when some extremely vocal posters were making life painful for many members. I said they need a boot up the arse, some Stalinist tight control and things would get better. He replied 'right your hired!' - but a few years in the job soon showed that to be the wrong approach.
Heavy moderation should be the tool of last resort.

I visited three clients today doing the day job.
Two were to discuss new start-up businesses and the other was a rather sad case of a company about to go under. The latter was a difficult meeting, quite emotional as we looked for ways to keep the thing going. We sat, we discussed, drank coffee and reached agreement on some less than pleasant actions to be taken.
No screaming, no shouting and no abuse.
Contrast that situation to ours at ZG, a pretty unimportant discussion about hi-fi and it surely shouldn't be necessary to have moderators walking the rooms with handcuffs and a cosh!
 
penance said:
Wow again!
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And then you find on the sidelines the other sort. I call them the vultures, as they are just waiting for an opportunity to throw in a one liner to make the situation worse. That is all this guy does, it is his fun and hobby and it contributes to the fourum F**k all apart from re-inforcing conflict. On Subjectiivist it would be removed *as soon as it appeared* no matter who it was directed at.

Another example of the vullture is the final post by Unclepuncle at the moment on the Scalford thread, now I know it is directed at me, but does it matter who it is aimed at, does it serve a purpose apart from to try and impose a vultures pecking order, and as fuel for the gang rape.
 
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Richard I'm sorry that you feel that 'plastic' has such a stigma attached to it, were you abused by an offcut of Lexan as a callow youth, or perhaps your advances were spurned by a tarty sheet of 10% glass filled Nylon 66 one night during the heyday of the sixties sexual revolution.

Frankly I've no idea why you get so upset by it, I was informed by a reliable source that you love a good session with twelve inches of vinyl.
 
Mescalito said:
hubsand said:
Someone can be terribly bright and yet still be a completely combative tosser.

Web history has already shown that forums lose their way, not because of trade QUOTE]

It's when they're not very bright and a completely combative tosser that you can really get problems!

Chris
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Granted!!

My point was that the attitude is more important than the knowledge . . . someone lacking experience, but willing to learn, can still contribute helpful questions, and participate in a shared journey of discovery.

The brightest minds tend to be conscious of how much they do not know. Conversely, mediocre intellects often fancy themselves omniscient.

The least useful posts stem from vanity. I would ban anyone whose motivation appears to be to preach rather than to learn, or to teach: private or trade. Wouldn't that improve the signal to noise ratio?
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hubsand said:
The least useful posts stem from vanity. I would ban anyone whose motivation appears to be to preach rather than to learn, or to teach: private or trade. Wouldn't that improve the signal to noise ratio?
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Does signal to noise ratio improve the overall quality? A TT has an average of 70dB of SNR, whilst a CDP might have 96dB. Which one sounds better is a matter of ongoing debate a mere 28 years after I saw the first CDP in action.
So we could end up with a very long thread;).

By the way, I am a manufacturer, but have only posted twice here. For the rest of the time I just read what others have to write.
 
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Would you consider it beneficial it you could raise the SNR of your TT by 20dB without changing anything else for the worse?

EDIT: let me rephrase that; Do you think your TT would sound subjectively better if you could....
 
The brain is a funny thing. It can reject anomalies as if they were never there. Take most scratches on an LP for instance. After a while they just fade away from the music. The same is the case with old celluloid film.
You can aim for perfection, but after a while you'll end up making compromises in a random nature in order to make your own life and obsession easier.
 
StanleyB said:
The brain is a funny thing. It can reject anomalies as if they were never there. Take most scratches on an LP for instance. After a while they just fade away from the music. The same is the case with old celluloid film.
You can aim for perfection, but after a while you'll end up making compromises in a random nature in order to make your own life and obsession easier.
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Depends on the music, it might be true for loud pop & rock but try something like the Debussy preludes on LP.

LP by it's very nature, limits your music.

End of side distortion.

Limited playing time.
 

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