New forum ethos - what exactly is it?

Rob, there are obviously few real objectivists here. A real objectivist would demonstrate their point by both listening to and measuring the phenomenon observed by the subjectivist. I consider myself to be in the objectivist camp, but not to the exclusion of some subjective observation. What frustrates me is the lazy nature of most subjective/objective argument. A subjectivist only has to listen to make their point. An objectivist has to both listen and measure. Simply telling the subjectivist to go away and come back with proof in the form of a measured difference is both lazy and patronising. And sadly that is what most of the arguments amount to.

If you want to make a difference then simply adopting a philosophy is not enough. There also has to be the behind the scenes work and measurement to support your point of view. That all takes time, money and considerable expertise few in the 'objectivist camp' actually possess.

Quoted from Wikipedia is a definition of objectivity in scientific circumstances. It is obviously not the only definition but I like it because it points out to me just what a minefield it is but does suggest to me that it is the responsibility of the objectivist to do the ground work and prove or disprove any errant claims. Otherwise you end up telling a subjectivist they need to be more objective which is why the result is conflict.

Some people[who?] regard science as objective in this sense and this objectivity in science is often attributed with the property of scientific measurement that can be tested independent from the individual scientist (the subject) who proposes them.[citation needed] It is thus intimately related to the aim of testability and reproducibility. To be properly considered objective, the results of measurement must be communicated from person to person, and then demonstrated for third parties, as an advance in understanding of the objective world. Such demonstrable knowledge would ordinarily confer demonstrable powers of prediction or technological construction.[citation needed]

However, this traditional view about objectivity ignores several things. First, the selection of the specific object to measure is typically a subjective decision and it often involves reductionism. Second, and potentially much more problematic, is the selection of instruments (tools) and the selection of the measurement methodology. Some features or qualities of the object under study will be ignored in the measurement process and the limitations of the chosen instruments will cause data to be left out of consideration. In addition to these absolute limits of objectivity surrounding the measurement process, any given community of researchers often shares certain "subjective views" and this subjectivity is therefore built in to the conceptual systems; and it can even be built in to the design of the tools used for measurement. Total objectivity is arguably not even possible in someââ'¬â€or maybe allââ'¬â€situations.[citation needed]
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In short, is Zerogain simply going to talk the talk or are they going to do what is required to qualify their objectivist stance.
 
Labarum said:
Except that none of these big boys has produced domestically acceptable quality loudspeakers - active or passive.

The final transducer is where the biggest difference can be made.
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There's 'domestically acceptable quality' and 'passable quality' loudspeakers. The largest loudspeaker company in the UK until recently was not a brand name, it was a factory speccing loudspeakers for Japanese systems. The spec was by size and weight first, followed by physical appearance matching and then drive units.

It's worth bearing in mind that if the specialist electronics end of the industry had gone away completely, the speaker industry would have followed suit almost immediately. At the start of the 1970s, you had a plethora of independent electrical shops selling mostly UK-based electronics and loudspeakers. By the end of the 1970s, you had high street multiples selling Japanese electronics and specialist retailers selling UK-based loudspeakers. The high-street multiples wanted nothing to do with confusing the punter by presenting them with a choice of loudspeaker, while the independent didn't have the buying power to stock Japanese electronics to sell with their range of loudspeakers.

The UK specialist electronics manufacturers provided an alternative to the Japanese products, but they couldn't compete on price or specs (and the 'Buy British' campaign had proved a remarkable failure in every other avenue), so out came 'it sounds better'. Which, when played through a pair of decent loudspeakers, was demonstrable.

Linn had already shown that a good sales pitch can work wonders. Survival instinct meant others would follow Linn's lead. I guess the descent into decadence was an obvious end result, in hindsight, but compared to the UK's excellent TV, car, motorcycle, photographic and early computing industries of the post-war period, we still have a small hi-fi industry, so it must have worked.
 
Fnuckle said:
The UK specialist electronics manufacturers provided an alternative to the Japanese products, but they couldn't compete on price or specs (and the 'Buy British' campaign had proved a remarkable failure in every other avenue), so out came 'it sounds better'. Which, when played through a pair of decent loudspeakers, was demonstrable.
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When stationed in Germany in the 1980s I noted the small independent HiFi shops and the large department stores with audio/TV sections stocked a good range of relatively expensive German made speakers (Quart, Canton) and run of the mill production electronics - CD players and amps - by Sony and Philips (just 150km down the road) You had to look long and hard for specialist, small production run electronics.

Was that not the better business model? Is it not still the better business model?

How do we convince buyers of the need for decent speakers? Decent electronics is there cheaply and in abundance, all let down by the final transducer.

It's not something this, or any forum, can achieve - we fiddle while Rome burns.
 
Labarum said:
When stationed in Germany in the 1980s I noted the small independent HiFi shops and the large department stores with audio/TV sections stocked a good range of relatively expensive German made speakers (Quart, Canton) and run of the mill production electronics - CD players and amps - by Sony and Philips (just 150km down the road) You had to look long and hard for specialist, small production run electronics.

Was that not the better business model? Is it not still the better business model?

How do we convince buyers of the need for decent speakers? Decent electronics is there cheaply and in abundance, all let down by the final transducer.

It's not something this, or any forum, can achieve - we fiddle while Rome burns.
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Sadly, not in the UK.

The most successful model here prove to be to sell a complete package (including loudspeakers) because the sale does not require specialist store staff. Sheer weight of advertising and loss-leader discounting pushed out the competition (or moved it to the sidelines just enough to stay within the competition commission's guidelines). There are a lot of extremely good CD players and amplifiers partnered with truly dreadful loudspeakers and when the speakers die - as they invariably do, because the drive units are not designed for long-term use - the whole system gets dumped.

How do you convince buyers about loudspeakers? You don't. You can't. For a nation of loudspeaker builders, we seriously underplay the significance of the loudspeaker in a system. Problem is, once Linn made a career out of saying 'source first' (funny that, a company making turntables professing the importance of the turntable) it became clear than everyone else could do the same. So now we have the 'mains cables first' line (once again, curiously the advocate of the start with the power cord is a manufacturer of power cords that cost as much as a car). Few audiophiles have the courage of their convictions to reject such statements, even less have the electronics engineering skills needed to see through pseudo-science arguments, while the counter argument buoyed by dealers and magazines who would never kill the goose that lays the golden eggs. At least not publicly.
 
I'm with Rob in believing that no viewpoint is beyond question. There's no opinion that for any reason deserves not to be questioned, if we stop questioning then we become swamped in all that is left- rhetoric.

It has occurred to me that the middle way might well exist, well partially. We are a nation of speaker builders, 'the' nation of speaker builders if wooden boxes and not horns are your thing. Might it not serve the forum to tackle the thorny issue of speaker/room integration and take a lead primarily in that dept. There is after all minimal crossover between pro and commercial sectors in this respect, as most of us typically don't frequent the pro sites.

We could be come the beacon for room integration. The depositary for domestically acceptable methods of improving the sound in your room. after all it's the last big difference in audio and typically where the largest gains are to be made.
 
sq225917 said:
I'm with Rob in believing that no viewpoint is beyond question. There's no opinion that for any reason deserves not to be questioned, if we stop questioning then we become swamped in all that is left- rhetoric.

It has occurred to me that the middle way might well exist, well partially. We are a nation of speaker builders, 'the' nation of speaker builders if wooden boxes and not horns are your thing. Might it not serve the forum to tackle the thorny issue of speaker/room integration and take a lead primarily in that dept. There is after all minimal crossover between pro and commercial sectors in this respect, as most of us typically don't frequent the pro sites.

We could be come the beacon for room integration. The depositary for domestically acceptable methods of improving the sound in your room. after all it's the last big difference in audio and typically where the largest gains are to be made.
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Yes indeed.

Funnily enough, in response to your suggestion Tenson emailed sugesting some toipics for the new Reference room - high up the agenda being rooom and speaker integration. Great idea and one that amply demonstrates to marriage of measurement and listening.
 
Cable Monkey said:
Rob, there are obviously few real objectivists here. A real objectivist would demonstrate their point by both listening to and measuring the phenomenon observed by the subjectivist. I consider myself to be in the objectivist camp, but not to the exclusion of some subjective observation. What frustrates me is the lazy nature of most subjective/objective argument. A subjectivist only has to listen to make their point. An objectivist has to both listen and measure. Simply telling the subjectivist to go away and come back with proof in the form of a measured difference is both lazy and patronising. And sadly that is what most of the arguments amount to.

If you want to make a difference then simply adopting a philosophy is not enough. There also has to be the behind the scenes work and measurement to support your point of view. That all takes time, money and considerable expertise few in the 'objectivist camp' actually possess.

Quoted from Wikipedia is a definition of objectivity in scientific circumstances. It is obviously not the only definition but I like it because it points out to me just what a minefield it is but does suggest to me that it is the responsibility of the objectivist to do the ground work and prove or disprove any errant claims. Otherwise you end up telling a subjectivist they need to be more objective which is why the result is conflict.


In short, is Zerogain simply going to talk the talk or are they going to do what is required to qualify their objectivist stance.
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I agree - and I have tried to provide 'audience participation' style threads wherever possible. Needs more input from others though.
Bake-offs where we have both sighted and blind testing, with the results compared and discussed in threads - I'm all for it and have done it.

But......while we've all been in here discussing the finer points of forum ethos we appear to have rather a lot of active threads appearing :) so lets not get too hung-up on this.
 
I proferred this suggestion on another forum but nothing came of it.

We could all pony up a small amount for an XZY room mic things and then measure our rooms. Then work towards solutions for improving the sound. ZG designs for absorbers, Helmholtz resonators for narrow band cancellation etc.

I'll pony the first £10.
 
ooh, that's posh Keith. I'd be interested in doing digital correction vs room treatment... Big project though.
 
Happy to throw in some cash - what would be the cost of the kit?

I have my own mics and kit but can't really throw those out for constant circulation.
 
I borrowed one of those XZY mic's and software some time ago and spent quite a long time measuring my room and making adjustments. To be honest, I didn't find it of much real use.
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RobHolt said:
But......while we've all been in here discussing the finer points of forum ethos we appear to have rather a lot of active threads appearing :) so lets not get too hung-up on this.
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A remarkable coincidence.
 
It's a shame you don't live a little closer Simon, measuring my room which I thought was pretty good was revealing!
I have quite a major bass suck out , particularly on the left channel at 90Hz, the Trinnov suggests a target curve, but the final correction is up to you.
The corrected file can be bypassed so you can hear the pre and post sound, it is fascinating, really you cant go back to the untreated room.
I have been trying some external dacs with it, but they don't appear to offer any improvement over the on board converter.
I could send it up with their microphone and you could experiment?
vb Keith.
 
YNMOAN said:
A remarkable coincidence.
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Don't read too much into it either way - nothing happens that quickly ;)


On the room measurements, a mic with a decent response, external soundcard and a copy of ARTA will do a better job in identifying room issues.
The software might put some off though as it doesn't have the most intuitive interface.


YNMOAN said:
am i - sorry :-(


is it an mp3 loop now?
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I think its 'Processor' on most kit these days.
 

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