Post 1750 music

Just to liven things up a bit, I will make a strong statement on romantic music. This does not necessarily reflect my view on the subject, but I intend to stir things up a bit.

Once, a colleague of mine told me that he detested romantic music because he could not stand the mixture of masterful male heroism and candid innocence.

I must say that I fully understand what he said. Up to a point, this stems from the sonata form. But it is true that, for instance in Bruckner, the opposition is sometimes impossible (the 4th, romantic symphony is a case in point).

Also, even in Brahm's opus 118, I could very well do without the opposition between beautiful autumnal colors and violent emotions: it just seems unnatural to me to mix these two emotions.

Now in many cases I quite agree that the clash between different emotions is the essence of expressive music, but I can understand that one may prefer a greater unity of expression.

Another thing that may bother many people is how long romantic music takes to solve the conflicts.

I remember once listening to Bruckner's 8th and then to, I think, the b flat minor PF of WTC II, and musing that Bach said it all in about 10 minutes whereas Bruckner takes about an hour to say the same (of course: not the same, but you get the point).

Also, the proliferation of themes and episodes can be quite boring: it is very often hard to get the overall meaning of things. Tchaikowski (or Çiaikosvski, or whatever you prefer) springs to mind here, and so does Schumann.

So now I am ready to be told what a philistine I am

:gatling:
:chainsaw:
:inferno:
:chop:
:micro:
:laser:
:saw:

All are welcome!

 

Stir things up?

Well, all right then.

My device?
Be happy with your own preferences!

Why compare Bach to Bruckner? Why compare baroque to romanticism?
Didn't Bruckner write rather short choral works, too?
Didn't Bach write Schlummert ein, ihr matten Augen? Rather long piece, just to sing one's troubled soul into an eternal rest, wouldn't you say? I mean, one knock on the head (a sort of a Mahlerian BOOM!) would be sufficient!

And, BTW, even though I do not know if Bach really wanted to cause all these inner feelings, isn't there also a great difference in so-called emotions between Ich folge dir gleichfalls mit freudigen Schritten and Ach, mein Sinn, wo willt du endlich hin??

Isn't there, just to name one single part of the SJP (I've been listening to this work rather much lately, that's why I mention it), a great difference between glorifying a divine greatness and humble kneeling while witnessing a divine humiliation in the opening choir Herr, unser Herrscher?

Or are these descriptions nothing but quasi-inspired romantic humbug?

And if so .... am I bothered?

 

Marc:

The idea behind this thread is to allow people who complain that only Bach is discussed to stress what many 'baroqueux' feel regarding post Bach music is wrong.

I made some statements not because I necessarily endorse them but because this might bring a defense, that is, a positive evaluation of post Bachian music.

That said. In the Passions there are obvious mood changes but they are suggested by the text (even if I prefer to listen to Passions without the arias). A better comparison would be the double fugues of Bach (e.g., BWV 904).

And I just hate the Ich folge dir... : it seems totally out of place.

But what I would like is that someone actually defended the sonata form, why it is interesting, why the contrast between heroism and candor is not really idiot - all with examples.

Defending the size of Bruckner's Symphonies may be a bit more difficult, even if I would not like to see the 8th cut. But I often (rather: almost always) listen to a movement each time...

 

I'm sorry I didn't live up to your expectations. But I'm not really educated in the theory of musical forms.

Despite of that, I'm not sure that I would agree with the so-called fact that the mixture of different feelings stems from the sonata form. In a way, I already gave an example with the opening choir of Bach's SJP, which is written in the da capo-form (A-B-A). And I also think that a lot of his Preludes and Fugues are examples of compositions with contrasting 'emotions'.
Chopin's Nocturnes are also written in a A-B-A form, and do also have this contrasting mixture of very different emotions. Do they last too long? Not for my taste, I must admit.

Still, in the last few months I have been listening to and watching the first two parts of Wagner's Ring with a small group of music enthousiasts. And yes, I've been thinking rather often: COME ON, GET ON WITH IT! But I think this is not caused by any 'sonata form'.

About the length: yes, Schumann praised the 'heavenly length' of Schubert's Great Symphony. Those romantic folks really knew how to slow down. Maybe you don't like those romantic spirits because society nowadays isn't used to give things so much time any more, and you yourself have grown used to our hasty habits? Maybe that's a part of the explanation of the success of ancient music during the last decades? Man, do I like Purcell's Dido. It's done in less than an hour!
On the other hand: I know that a lot of people who love Bach's music aren't up to the task of listening to the whole SMP. They listen to it in the same way you consume your Bruckner.

I think this might still not be the reaction you were waiting for. Let's just hope that someone with some musicological knowledge is willing to pay a contribution.

 

Music post 1750?

There isn't any! (Nicely prejudiced point of view.)

 

I have no idea why I like romantic music. I just do. I also like Bach and can listen to the whole of the SMP in one go - if I ever get the chance.

Using Bruckner as an example for romantic music is a bit unfair. He is repetitive and takes a long time to say it.

Now Brahms instead.... what could you possibly prune from his 2nd or 4th symphonies? The 2nd movement of the 2nd is especially economical, without ever sounding like it.

 

Eisenach:

Marc:
No, your answer was nice and the last post nicer still. I agree that contrasting emotions is an old technique. In fact, it may be argued that music is all about that: start, change, get to the starting point after a lot of change.

To take an example from Buxtehude (whom I consider a greater organ composer than Bach), all the romantic contrasts are there: there is hope, terror, fear, joy and depression all together in a prelude. The difference may be that the emotions make sense to me.

Consider the great g minor (the one with the ostinato in the pedal at the beginning): disarray and sinister foreboding (the pedal ostinato does not reach the tonic), that resolves itself into utter darkness: the pedals bring the tonic, in very low notes, the manuals silent. Follows a fugue, somewhat lamenting; then a kind of dance macabre that leads to a second fugue (marked largo; it is certainly a lament even if most organists play it in organo pleno); this progresses to restlessness (pedals) and it reaches disarray; the music flows upwards in hope, but comes down in despair. Finally the thundering organo pleno crushes you completely.

This is understandable to me: it is a kind of everyday experience (well: not everyday, I hope) that everyone has felt once in a while.

However, considering Brahms' late piano works (opus 116-118) I feel the turmoil is false. It is as if he is contemplating autumn and his memories revolt against it; and then autumn is reinstated. Well, perhaps I am not old enough to understand this...

Chopin is more or less the same thing. While there a sublime Nocturnes in some cases I always find that the middle section is more or less a tantrum... I am exaggerating, for the sake of the argument, of course... I very much like the nocturnes and listen to them quite often - especially in rainy days they fill me with delight.

As for Brahms' symphonies yes, the ones you mentioned, Alan, are superb. But what am I to make of the beginning of the first. Played by Klemperer it is the most impressive piece of music there is - akin to many Buxtehude praeludia. But then what... bourgeois music follows. What was that about????

And about Mahler. I can honestly say that I detest most of his music. All that laughing at himself - that is his business, I always feel like telling him to shut up and not exhibit himself... Harnoncourt is right, I think, when he says he cares nothing about Mahler because he is not interested in what happened to him in the kitchen...

Marc. Wagner is another kind of bird. This is truly powerful music, really sublime. But I agree with Nietzsche when he said that Wagner is bad for the soul. Gardiner said the same: he called it 'pollution'. I really think Wagner is the musical equivalent (sublime, but all the same) to sadomasochism.

Finally. No, I am not troubled by the length. I am not a 'fast' person, I think the world is too fast for me. But I like composers to be to the point. In this, no one can better Bach: in a single fugue all the emotions (well almost) are hinted, worked through and solved. Even in simple fugues (I mean, with one theme only) like the WTC f minor, a great amount is said and there is not a note that I would like to take away. And listen to the b minor WTC I!!! Or to the rather simple Dona nobis pacem. Or the Es ist volbracht.

Schütz comes very close: is there any example of a better economy without loss of emotion than in his Sieben Worte? Or in his Saul, Saul?

This perhaps explains why I like Lieder so much. The composers have what they have to say and it is done. I like short stories, too, better than romances... Perhaps it is just me. I like short, condensed, things, even if my huge posts suggest otherwise

 

Well, maybe one can say that romanticism influenced the sonata form more than that the sonata form caused romanticism.

Reading your post made me clear that you are familiar with a lot more 17th and 18th music than I am, but still I think I get the point about you favouring this perdiod. I love the music of Bach and Mozart, and I also find great satisfaction in listening to - for instance - Purcell. (To name but a few.)
I'm sorry to tell you though that I really love Mahler, he's one of my favourite composers. And then we finally come to your already stated conclusion:
Perhaps it is just me.

But maybe I'm a torn soul :crazy:. I really can't say that I like short or long stories, I do like them both. It just depends on the mood I'm in, I think.

 

Rodrigo - do you have a view on Sibelius? particularly 3rd, 5th and 7th symphonies? They strike me as being quite objective and 'economical', more concerned with musical structure and architecture than histrionics or heroic rhetoric. Same with Bruckner's 5th.

 

Alen:
Exactly to the point: I rather like Sibelius and love the Bruckner 5th!

I am extremely fond of Sibelius 7th. I think he used to characterize it as 'when shadows go longer', but the others you mention are also favorites of mine.

Marc:
I love Purcell too. His Dido is unforgettable. His harpsichord pieces, when well played, are a marvel. It is a tad too simple, but I sometimes like very simple things - as I said in another thread I liked Françoise Hardy's Mon ami la rose.

I think Purcell is rather close to what we would now call pop music, but he had talent no doubt.

But yes, I don't think sonata form caused romanticism, but that romanticism used it in a particular way.

Let me state that I just love Brahm's opus 116-118. In fact, even if this is not strictly romantic music, I can cope with very long music: the 3rd movement of the Hammerklavier is one of the marvels of music, I think.

In fact, I do like romantic music (except perhaps Webber and a few others); but counterpoint and the tragedy of 17th Century music seems so very akin to me that if I believed in reincarnation I would say I had been an organist in northern 17th Century Germany.

 

I would certainly have come to the service or to your concerts, then . I recently got myself a copy of a recording of organ works by Georg Böhm, and am enjoying it.

 

Which record? WHo plays, and so forth?

If you like Bohm, you'll love Buxtehude and perhaps even more Lübeck...

 

It's the Naxos one, with Christiaan Teeuwsen playing on the 'brand new' (1999) Reil organ of the Bovenkerk in Kampen, the Netherlands. I'm definitely no organ connaisseur, but I truly like the sound, both of the instrument and the recording.

Well, last month I went to two organ concerts; one of them by a friend of mine on a simple choir organ in a 20th century church, with German baroque and classical (a.o. Buxtehude, J.S. Bach and C.P.E. Bach) and also 19th century French organ music (a.o. Franck); the other by Gustav Leonhardt, who played a 17th century selection. Unfortunately I lost the programme, but there was at least one Buxtehude composition, which I liked. It was at the Pelstergasthuis church in Groningen, the Netherlands. He was playing a Schnitger 1693/Hinsz 1774-organ: wonderful sound!

 

If you are, so am I. I generally become bored very fast by the demonstrative extrovert contrasting feelings of romantic music, and not the least the long time which obviously is necessary to get through it compared to its content. My parents were bitten with romantic music, - maybe I heard too much of it as a child. Even the romantic music's last stronghold in my mind - Brahms - is beginning to waver. No, my time for listening to music is far too limited (at the present) that I want to waste it upon listening to Romantic music. Excuse me.