Pro Audio PA Amps - Bargains to Be Had?

Uncle Ants

Uncle Ants

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The thread discussing Gav's humungous ceiling mounted subs and the need for suitable amps got me thinking ... or rather some of the responses to it got me thinking.

Obviously there are cheap PA amps, which are I'm sure a bit rough round the edges, but some of the suggestions were for the more quality items like the MC2 amps suggested by Cooky. Something like their T1000 for example pushes out 300w with fine looking specs for less than £1k new and they have meatier fare on their lists too. Presumably other quality PA amp makers like the Lab Gruppen and Crown gear suggested by Tenson, might also fit the bill.

If one was in the market for a beefy SS amp (I mean beefy as in 100s of watts not kilowatts :) ) to drive full range speakers - and didn't want to pay through the nose for the likes of Krell, Chord, MF etc. How would this sort of thing compare? .... and just how noisy ARE those fans :)

PS. Its a serious consideration. I've been wanting to try a big beefy high damping factor SS amp with my Spendor S100s for a while. Something like a 2nd hand MC2 is eminently affordable for such an experiment.
 
I am using an MC2 Audio MC1250 with an Altmann DAC and a Promitheus Signature TVC. Can not be happier. In my second system there is an Altmann BYOB amp as well. The speakers are Danley SH 100Bs. Cabels are pro too, Evidence Audio. There is absolutely nothing I should like to do to make the system better. Works perfectly well for my taste. Very expensive Audio Note Kageki, Avantgarde trio spekaers and Accupahse DP-100/DC-101 were used earlier in my system. Nothing is missed.
 
If you only need a few hundred watts look at beefy studio amps rather than PA. The advantage being most are passively cooled. The Alesis RA500 amps I just sold can monoblock to power 500watts in to 8Ohm. They are £150 each and fare very well against the likes of more 'audiophile' amps. Sweet clear treble, open mid and the power needed for punchy bass.
 
Tenson said:
If you only need a few hundred watts look at beefy studio amps rather than PA. The advantage being most are passively cooled. The Alesis RA500 amps I just sold can monoblock to power 500watts in to 8Ohm. They are £150 each and fare very well against the likes of more 'audiophile' amps. Sweet clear treble, open mid and the power needed for punchy bass.
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Hmmm ... okay you are stretching my credulity somewhat with that one :) At that price somethings got to give. What's wrong with them ;) The MC2s - well they are relatively cheap next to the likes of a Bryston pound per watt but they aren't cheap, cheap - it wouldn't be hard to believe they could be the bees knees. A £150 jobbie - is a lot harder to believe you will grant me.
 
So with these MC2 whatsits. Is there much between the E, T and MC series?

Do they all have fans?

It seems that the MC1250 has a large transformer based power supply, which the MC750 and 450 don't:

"The unique current driven drive stage adds an extra dimension to the bass dynamics, ensuring very accurate reproduction of transients"

I'm interested in trying out something on the bass of the Tannoy 15 DMTs.
 
You can get a 2nd hand bryston 4b-st for around £800 (250w/ch). If you bridge it into a monoblock it can put out almost a kilowatt into a sub.
 
Tannoy DMTs are stereo two-ways. But the Bryston would be fine on them no doubt.
 
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Uncle Ants said:
Hmmm ... okay you are stretching my credulity somewhat with that one :) At that price somethings got to give. What's wrong with them ;) The MC2s - well they are relatively cheap next to the likes of a Bryston pound per watt but they aren't cheap, cheap - it wouldn't be hard to believe they could be the bees knees. A £150 jobbie - is a lot harder to believe you will grant me.
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Its easier to believe when you actually meet one, build quality is very good. Its not quite as well built as Krell or Bryston, but it is very good none the less and easily as good as many other amps.

In terms of sound, you have to ask yourself what is actually inside an amp. You have a power supply, a drive stage and a power stage. There isn't much to it. The design of those stages can change things like PSRR and distortion but its well known how to minimize these and design an amp with less than 0.01% THD+N these days. You don't need fancy components if you have a solid reliable design. The difference with audiophile amps is in the scale of manufacturing and the quality of casework - though that isn't bad on the Alesis. Or they use some rather poor design that adds 'character' to the sound.

I'm now running some DIY amps using SKA modules, which people have switched to from Bryston, Krell, Passlabs etc.. and they don't sound much different to the Alesis to be frank. Nore should they, both are competent designs. The SKA is a little quieter in to efficient speakers.
 
http://www.mc2-audio.co.uk/
Terry Clarke of KlarkTeknik is the designer of the MC range.
MC1250;
This top of the range, no-compromise, ultra-high quality and professional power amplifier has a sonic performance that is comparable to the very best hi-fi amplifiers, only much more powerful.
OK, they would say that wouldn't they? but I've found it better than Nap 250s, Chord SPM1200, Bryston 4??, Crown K2 and Crest 4808 and lots of very reputable Studio monitoring and top of the line pa companies specify them....
They are however characterless, you really do 'forget' them and I can fully understand someone prefering a more identifiable sonic signature such as toobs etc in some systems.
The RUB; The fans can intrude late at night but you can always buy longer leads and stuff it in a cupboard.:D
 
Tenson said:
In terms of sound, you have to ask yourself what is actually inside an amp. You have a power supply, a drive stage and a power stage. There isn't much to it.
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There's also quality of parts, such as resistors and capacitors. A friend of mine had a poke inside a Bryston and said the resistors were really cheap german ones. Even if you don't believe that audiophile bits are necessary, you surely have the right to expect them in expensive amps.
 
Hi B,
Compared it to, and use an MC T1000.
They sound identical, the only difference being when you bridge the T-it's bass softens up slightly when compared to the (now)similarly powered 1250-could be DF or power supply differences.
I use a MC1250 up to 1.5k and the T1000 on mid treble duty on my Tannoy 215's(They also work well driving my latest project; vintage Westlake TM1 clones)
 
Baudrillard said:
There's also quality of parts, such as resistors and capacitors. A friend of mine had a poke inside a Bryston and said the resistors were really cheap german ones. Even if you don't believe that audiophile bits are necessary, you surely have the right to expect them in expensive amps.
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You could expect it in an expensive amp, but it doesn't always make a difference if they are 'audiophile' or not. What matters is that the part is suitable for its use, and that doesn't mean it has to be pricey. With Bryston you are paying for good design, a good case, a 20 year warranty and a brand name.

Seriously, at the price of some of the budget studio amps, you should just buy one and decide for yourself. I think you would be pleasantly surprised.

P.S. Can't you turn the fans off on the PA amps if they are only being used for domestic hi-fi?
 
Uncle Ants said:
Hmmm ... okay you are stretching my credulity somewhat with that one :) At that price somethings got to give. What's wrong with them ;) The MC2s - well they are relatively cheap next to the likes of a Bryston pound per watt but they aren't cheap, cheap - it wouldn't be hard to believe they could be the bees knees. A £150 jobbie - is a lot harder to believe you will grant me.
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That depends what you think an amp needs to do.

If you simply want accuracy as in the output signal mirrors that on the input you needn't spend much at all.

It's only when audiophiles get their hands on perfectly good basic circuits that the product deviates from neutral (ie, oh let's make this sound 'different') or the price tag sky rockets.
 
Tenson said:
You could expect it in an expensive amp, but it doesn't always make a difference if they are 'audiophile' or not. What matters is that the part is suitable for its use, and that doesn't mean it has to be pricey. With Bryston you are paying for good design, a good case, a 20 year warranty and a brand name.
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Exactly.
 
cooky1257 said:
http://www.mc2-audio.co.uk/
Terry Clarke of KlarkTeknik is the designer of the MC range.
MC1250;
This top of the range, no-compromise, ultra-high quality and professional power amplifier has a sonic performance that is comparable to the very best hi-fi amplifiers, only much more powerful.
....
....
They are however characterless, you really do 'forget' them and I can fully understand someone prefering a more identifiable sonic signature such as toobs etc in some systems.
The RUB; The fans can intrude late at night but you can always buy longer leads and stuff it in a cupboard.:D
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It is true. If there is any amp which is characterless, the MC1250 is. With its big toroid power tranny, it is probably controls the bass a bit better than the other MC2 amps, which has a real control too. But the MC1250 is just a bit special. When you first heard it, you do not realize immediately how good they are. You just like it. After using it for a while if you go back to another amp, there is a very good chance you will hear the "hifi" amp a bit artificial. I like mine a lot. It was a long (and winding) road from an Audio Note Kageki. It is mine below, naked.
 

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..And mine, slight internal differences:)
On the subject of turning the (4)fans off, these are quite heavily biassed into class A and would get a bit too hot AFAIK.
 
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They do look like very nice amps. Big PSU, I like :)

Lots of fans and power consumption.. I don't like!

I'm not convinced by the argument for class A. Class B is so low distortion its hardly worth it IMO, and these days the power a large class A amp uses is a bit un-green. As I recently read in a good book Rob bought me, amps that are only partly biased into class A can in fact produce more distortion as they are forced to transition to class B quite regularly. Better to be in one class or the other.
 
Tenson said:
They do look like very nice amps. Big PSU, I like :)

Lots of fans and power consumption.. I don't like!

I'm not convinced by the argument for class A. Class B is so low distortion its hardly worth it IMO, and these days the power a large class A amp uses is a bit un-green. As I recently read in a good book Rob bought me, amps that are only partly biased into class A can in fact produce more distortion as they are forced to transition to class B quite regularly. Better to be in one class or the other.
Click to expand...

I'm no electronics expert but these A/B MC's are supposed to be of the 'non switching' variety.
Yep definitely un-green tho' and really really really f****ng heavy:D
 

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