Record deck.......im going around in circles!!

As christmas is coming i was thinking of asking the missus for a turntable to complement my existing setup. Nad c350 amp, Mordaunt short ms902 signature speakers marantz cd6000 ose le cd player qed siler anniversary bi wire.

I have been reading this forum for some time and although a beginner to HI fi i think i have a handle on a lot of the jargon when it comes to cd players, speakers and amps. When we step into the field of turntables i get completely lost. Drives, arms stages and phonos, preouts,unpivots, goldrings ect ect. HELLLLLLLLPPPP.

So 2 things really

1 - I really want to understand what makes up a good deck, what i should look for and avoid, what can you tweak and what should be left alone. How they operate and what are the pitfalls.

2 - Any recommendations for a beginner to intermediate deck that can really sing. Next year i am hopefully upgrading to a Roksan Amp and maybe an Arcam cd player with maybe some quad 11ls or equivalent. So the deck has to be versatile enough to sound good with what ive got as well as with what i would like.

I know this is probably basic stuff but when it comes to record decks im a bit miffed.
Thanks for taking the time to read and any advice is greatly appreciated.
Greg

 

What is the budget?

Whatever the budget is, I would recommend the Linn Sondek LP12, an evergreen design with a clear upgrade path. See if you can get a second-hand one preferably from a dealer who understands them. Look/ask in the pink fish forum for pointers as to what to look out for.

It's very fashionable to 'knock' the LP12, but set-up correctly it will put a big smile on your face.

 

Or theres the project debut II which is around £120 or so at the other end of the market that The Devil mentioned.

 

1 - I really want to understand what makes up a good deck, what i should look for and avoid, what can you tweak and what should be left alone. How they operate and what are the pitfalls.

A deck is a measuring device it measures the groove walls in relation to time. A good one is much like any other precision measuring device, built to tight tolerances with good materials and by designers who know what they are up to. In simple terms this is why expensive decks sound better than cheap ones.

You can tweak everything see www.vinylasylum.com for more TT stuff than you can imagine.

Once set up well leave it all alone!!! You have options in tonearms, cartridges, phonostages, mats and who knows what else. Within each of these areas a whole slew of adjustments and preferences to play with to your hearts content. It's a minefield or wonderland depending on where you stand.



2 - Any recommendations for a beginner to intermediate deck that can really sing. Next year i am hopefully upgrading to a Roksan Amp and maybe an Arcam cd player with maybe some quad 11ls or equivalent. So the deck has to be versatile enough to sound good with what ive got as well as with what i would like.

Yup loads look at Rega, Mitchell, Roksan, Project, Kuzma, Notts analogue, Linn (SH) and there's a few more I have forgotten.

I subscribe to the Rigid deck ethos I can't be arsed setting stuff up and I don't like bouncy decks, I break needles!!

I think a good simple deck like a Rega P3 on a wallshelf with a sensible 200 quid cart like a Dynavector 10X will be good start. If you like it and get into vinyl you can upgrade and get a good SH price, also Regas are a doddle to set up as you just have to get it level which isn't hard, (setting up a cartridge properly is fiddly but not difficult at all any competent dealer can do it or you can at home very easily).

The thing with TTs is you get what you pay for.

 

The project is a great deck if you want somthing that plays a tune and just want to forget about all the physics behind it. Its an odd deck being audiphile in design but at a budget price. It seems to have all the qualities of the more expensive machines but has a cheaper arm and cartridge. I would also imagine the plinth isn't as heavy..... err ok I shall shut up

 

As I've done this whole t/t shopping bit recently, here's what I found

The Project Debut II's that I heard stank the place up (I'm more than willing to believe that they were dud as no-one else has a bad word to say about it)

Project RPM4 with an Ortofon 520 II sounded much nicer, richer, deeper, but smooth to the point of boredom.

Rega P2 with Super Bias Cartridge quite nice, very clear and foot tapping

Rega P3 with Ortofon 520 II. Sounded perfect to me. More bite and attack, which I like, but doesn't compromise the depth (which I found to be similar to the RPM4)

I bought the P3 with the Ortofon 520 II (I'd heard the Rega Elys in the P3, it sounded very nice, managed to make any surface noise seem to disappear but the Ortofon made it sound the way I like it. The dealer didn't tell me what cartridge he'd fitted, and I was amazed that it was the Ortofon, as my previous experience was in the uber smooth RPM4. Guess that shows how different decks can sound.)

 

I'd recommend buying a second hand deck over a new one, if you're really interested in how they work, chances are you might feel like upgrading one day. Cheap decks aren't much cop for that.

As for the 'measuring device' comment, that isn't really true. A turntable is just a device for reproducing an audio signal. It doesn't measure anything.

 

Tom,
If Touraj from Roksan say's it a measuring device,then that's good enough for me

Paul.

 

As its your first Turntable i'd keep it as simple as possible,until you gain more knowledge of them,feel more confident in them,build up a good collection,so for a starter i would be inclined to keep it simple,and when you look for a new amp look for one the already has a on board phono stage of good quality.

I wouldn't go for a Linn or suspended deck as a beginer,and look for a fit and forget deck like the Rega P3,and place it on its own support made by Rega,and add a cartridge from Rega themselves or a goldring 1042 /shure mx97E.


If you feel like moding the deck at a later date add the origin Live weight,it really improves the Rega arm and is a easy operation to do.

 

er, it measures deflection of the stylus caused by the changeing surface of the record groove, the movement is then turned into an electrical signal by either moveing a magnet around a coil or vice versa. The accuracy of that measurement influences the accuracy of the sound.
Therefore a measureing device!.
As for Tom's comment, that isnt realy true

 

If you are beginning with vinyl, as with anything in this game, I would suggest starting with most peoples accepted starting decks, and industry standards, which precludes esoteric posh ones like linns, michells, roksans, and worse. Its more fun to start small and build up.

start off with a planar 2 or 3, or a project. There is no setting up of suspension, which will wreck your enthusiasm faster than a premature ejaculation.

If going secondhand, get one with an original box, and vet the owner to make sure its been cared for. Usual signs are well kept, clean, lids, and treats it with respect, the usual stuff.

You can get a nad 533, which is a planar 2. Cartridges can be a pain to set up, so if you don't know, find out some tricks of the trade from someone who knows.

 

A Helix plastic ruler is a measuring device. A spirit level is a measuring device. A turntable is not.

On your criteria, you could say that a vehicle is a measuring device. Or an electrical transfomer. Neither statement is true.

 

a vehicle isnt designed to produce sounds based on the undulations in the road surface

 

Obviously depends on budget. For £400 you can get a new Rega P3, excellent low effort turntable. For the same you can get onto the LP12 wagon, but that involves much more 'enthusiasm', but will be much much better. Both are very tradeable.

Personally, having heard an entry level Linn I wouldn't be able to live with a Rega P3.

Paul

 

The old ones are the best

My dick's twelve inches, but I don't use it as a rule.

Neither statement is true.

 

I have an LP12 and yes you can fiddle with the bits and tweak it to your hearts content - you may not be listening to the music but rather the results precieved or otherwise of you tweaking. I would suggest for your first TT go for one of the "plug and play" type already mentioned not the "plug and prey" LP12 but whatever TT you purchase make sure you have enough cash left for a stack of records.

Auric

 

cheers for all the info fellas, even if some of it was more than required. Anatomical references should be in the Off topic forum or even the DIY forum!!!!

I am still confused as to the workings of a record deck though. What is a cartridge and what does it do, where does it go?
What does 'audiophile in design' mean?
Whats a suspended deck?
Whats ' setting up suspension?

Probably tedious beginner stuff that im sure you have explained to someone elsewhere many times.

Is there a website available with diagrams and info on decks and their workings/parts ect.

I dont have much vinyl but i really like the idea of building up a decent collection. Walking around camden market or spitalfields market there are some great vinyl stalls with loads of old soul and funk stuff.

Thanks again
Greg

 

Re: The old ones are the best

Then it is a foot.


What about Mitchells entry level deck?

Not the Mycro, a newer version. Name escapes me.

 

Cartridge - has stylus and coils/magnets, stylus follows the groove and picks up the undulations to make a signal

Hmm

Suspended deck is one that has some form of suspension to counteract external vibrations, this needs to be set up correctly to obtain optimum results. Spring tension rebound etc..
The other philosophy is a damped deck, mass loaded to reject external vibration, Nott's analogue as an example.


New michell deck is the tecno i think, maybe worth an audition

 

Cheers penance

Just looked at a couple of websites and understand a little more now. I cant believe the prices of some of the cartridges alone. They go up to several hundred pounds. Whats a phono stage and what does that do?

I like the prestige that comes with vinyl. Seems a little more sophisticated than cd IMHO LOL.

What sort of sound should i expect from a good deck. I always imagined it to be a warm punchy sound.

Greg