Speakers - Toroidal trouble... Pics added!

Discussion in 'DIY Discussion' started by SMEagol, Aug 29, 2008.

  1. SMEagol

    SMEagol Because we wants it...

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    I'm fixing my Horning ONES up myself, I'm really glad I gave this a go, so far I've extended all the wires from the original crossovers to a respectable length that had been cut by some idiot, I've learned to solder from utube! and I'm a dab hand with heat shrink now. I'm just trying to get these back to the Horning design of one pair of speaker posts from the bi-amped "Reg Prescott" disaster they were.


    Here is the lie of the land...

    Speakers have a
    Horning lotus tweeter with OFC pos and neg cable.
    Lowther DX2 mid driver with OFC pos and neg cable.
    10" backfiring Woofer with a small step up transformer (that would appear to just connect direct to the speaker posts)

    The single crossover in each cabinet is a round toroid doughnut, (appears to have three resistors - pink pink black gold bands and a capacitor MKP-FC 0.47 strapped to it) with a red and a blue wire going in and a red and a blue wire going out. which driver would this work with?

    Pics added - The bit of string reminds me which cables go to the binding posts, note sitting in a big mastic blob (anti resonance) these were stuck in round plastic boxes that screw to the cabinet side.

    Ta muchly oracles. Really enjoying this as I can't realistically get these behemoths down to Leicester!

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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    SMEagol, Aug 29, 2008
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  2. SMEagol

    SMEagol Because we wants it...

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    looking at the Horning site, he seems to reserve the crossover for the tweeter and leave the mid and bass alone, so might try that...
     
    SMEagol, Aug 30, 2008
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  3. SMEagol

    Tenson Moderator

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    Most likely its an inductor, rather than a transformer. Series inductors roll off high frequencies.

    Where did the melted chocolate bar come from? Or is it... :eek:
     
    Tenson, Aug 30, 2008
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  4. SMEagol

    SMEagol Because we wants it...

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    ...yes it does look tasty, but I have a cupboard full of green & blacks at the mo, so haven't felt the urge Simon!
    Do you think the pictured thing works with the tweeter then?

    Bestest Chris (ps thanks for the price on the ST's) waiting for some dough!
     
    SMEagol, Aug 30, 2008
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  5. SMEagol

    Tenson Moderator

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    Well the tweeter will definitely need something on it to stop the bass going through. If thats the only bit of xover in the cabinet then I'd guess it does go on the tweeter.

    I can't really see the wiring, but I would guess the cap and resistors are in parallel with each other, and in series with the signal, then the inductor is in parallel with the signal.

    If it went on the woofer it would have the inductor in series with the signal, and the cap in parallel.

    If it went on the mid, it could be either way round.
     
    Tenson, Aug 30, 2008
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  6. SMEagol

    SMEagol Because we wants it...

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    update

    Its all gone pear shaped, connected it up as per the diagram shown and turned on the amp, turned up the volume loud all i got was feint music from the lowther and nothing else. Wiring looked great too - gutted! Decided to use the other pair of posts to keep the soldering simple. The woofer has its own little transformer in line that isn't shown on the diagram.

    [​IMG]

    HELP!!!, does the crossover take the positive of one driver and the negative of the other? Have I put the crossover in upside down?
     
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    SMEagol, Aug 30, 2008
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  7. SMEagol

    Tenson Moderator

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    Its impossible to help because we can't see the wiring of the xover.

    On closer inspection of the xover pic, it looks as though the orange and blue wires are connecting together a the same point. Is that the case? This would be a short circuit.

    Can you give a diagram of how the xover parts are wired together?

    p.s. its not a transformer, its an inductor. Also don't turn your amp up if you are getting no sound, it could blow.
     
    Tenson, Aug 30, 2008
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  8. SMEagol

    RobHolt Moderator

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    If, as in the OP, that circuit has a red & blue going in, and a red and blue going out, it does indeed look like the wires are shorted together.

    If you are still getting some sound with such a drastic fault condition I assume you are using a tube amp ?
    However, it won't like being run like that for very long! (read seconds).

    The Lowther driver is a full range unit and runs up to about 16khz so the tweeter is probably intended to come in quite high and the use of a 0.47uf series cap would support that.
    With that in mind, I'd say the incoming red lead should go to one end of the 0.47uf cap with the other red lead soldered to the other end and going on to the tweeter + terminal.
    The toroid inductor will then sit across the exiting blue and red leads.
    The resistors could be used for tweeter level padding or sit in series with the inductor to modify the roll-off.
    As Simon says we need a schematic of the crossover really.
     
    RobHolt, Aug 30, 2008
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  9. SMEagol

    lbr monkey boy

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    I know sweet FA about crossovers, but have done a little web search and post a couple of bits of info here in case they are useful for the more knowledgeable guys.

    From a positive-feedback review of Horning Agathon Ultimates:

    "The woofers are custom made to Hørning's spec by Beyma, a pro audio manufacturer. They have huge magnets and are run full-range—they never go into a crossover and naturally roll off at 200Hz. The Lowther (DX4 model in the Ultimate version, the only way it comes if you buy it in the USA. The standard Agathon with DX3 Lowther is available overseas) is not only one of the most expensive, but also one of the fastest drivers on the planet. Its whizzer cap is removed, the paper cone is doped to strengthen it, and a plug is inserted in the center for the purpose of restricting the cone's excursion. That plus a simple crossover limit its top end to 6kHz. The Lowther and the Lotus tweeter share a single hand-built capacitor made of a sheet of copper foil encased in graphite, which is encased again in beeswax-coated paper. These two drivers also share four hand-made resistors, each made out of a single bar of 100% pure graphite. Lastly, there's one common choke."

    Excerpts from a rambling thread at Romy the Mentalist Cat's site. Full thread at http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=1022

    Romy: "Hørning did very correct: they high-pass and low-pass thier Lowther without letting this driver to go very high and very low...They high-pass [the Lowther] driver at 200Hz "

    Thorsten (who claims to have opened one up and had a look-see): "First, the Lowther has ze wizzer cut off and has an Equalisation circuit to flatten ze upper midrange bump. Otherwise it is run fullrange, that is WITHOUT HIGHPASS OR LOWPASS...Crossovers on woofer and tweeter are 1st order and the woofer(s) carry on quite high up in frequency to support the Lowthers lower midrange."

    Romy: "Regarding the absents of the band-pass filters… Perhaps you are correct. However, they use Lowther DXII that runs up to 6-7kHz. Probably they let the Lowther decay I upper knew naturally, which is fine. The lower knee in their Lowther quite low and they truncated it at 200Hz"

    Thorsten: "Not quite. The woofer(s) come in at 200Hz, the low Qt of the Lowther makes the SPL roll off notably below around 200Hz,"
     
    lbr, Aug 30, 2008
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  10. SMEagol

    SMEagol Because we wants it...

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    Thanks Rob, don't get the last bit? :(

    Thanks everyone Rob, Lbr and Tenson for helping here, sorry about the bugger up! At school - my Physics, although historically it looked really neat, never actually worked!
    There seems to be one common entrance and one common exit which engages the toroid and cap and transistors via one set of common connections on both sides, if the wiring colour used was irrelevant to whoever modded these speakers and they knew what they were doing would that make some sense? on the other crossover all the insulation was black, on this one its was red and blue (with cut blue stumps) I just assumed that the blues needed extending - yes looking at it it would be a short circuit!. If they were both positive or both negative, this presumably is the only way this Xover would function.

    If I understand Rob - just wire the Xover to the tweeter through the red incoming positive, and wire the outgoing blue from the tweeter to the binding post would that work? just run the lowther full range?
     
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    SMEagol, Aug 30, 2008
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  11. SMEagol

    Tenson Moderator

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    No offense meant, but you sound incredibly confused.

    There are a number of ways these components could be used. Did you solder the red and blue wires to the Xover yourself, or was it like that from the beginning?

    Anyway here are some options. The top section assumes that the toroid inductor is reserved for going in series with the lowther to stop it going too high, while the other components are for the tweeter. Note that the negative terminal of all the drivers connects directly to the negative binding post so it doesn't necessarily connect at all to the crossover.

    The lower section assumes the lowther is run full range (no xover) and so the inductor is used on the tweeter. In this case the negative terminal of the driver has to connect to the xover on its way to the negative binding post. I hope I'm not just making it more confusing by trying to describe it in words. Let the diagram do the talking.

    [​IMG]

    Ignore all the component values I used in my drawing as I filled in anything. The important thing is how they connect.

    I don't think the last option is that likely by the way, but it is a possibility.
     
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    Tenson, Aug 30, 2008
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  12. SMEagol

    SMEagol Because we wants it...

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    None taken Simon, I'm not a quitter by nature, soul destroying really as I'm pretty good with tinkering, just have no knowledge (you might have guessed) of circuits! as I said both ends of the crossover have a common use of all the components, theres no isolation between the toroid and the other components. I will get this right if it kills me (not my amp)!

    Best Regards

    Chris
     
    SMEagol, Aug 30, 2008
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  13. SMEagol

    Tenson Moderator

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    Well you could try the first three options I posted without worring about destroying anything. See which sounds best.

    The last option may not protect the tweeter that well, but it should tell you if it sounds bad at low level.
     
    Tenson, Aug 30, 2008
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  14. SMEagol

    SMEagol Because we wants it...

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    Thanks guys - no more worries!

    I have wired just the tweeter through the crossover first, the lowther sounded a bit thin on a test play, so, wired the lowther through this as well just using the positives! (as Simon said... assumes the toroid inductor is reserved for going in series with the lowther to stop it going too high), and wired all the negatives direct to the binding posts. I havent used any negatives in the crossover as it all seems to be a common connection both in and out.

    The sub has its own pair of posts and is run with the jumpers, looking at the reviews of other Hornings Tommy seems to run the woofers full range. The existing available wiring in the cab points to this too.

    Impressions are very very good, somebody suggested the lowther should be driven full range but it sounded squawky in this cabinet, and there was evidence that supported more than one driver going through the Xover originally.

    On a test play of the finished pair Goldfrapp sounded excellent, glorious mids, nice bass thump and not too sharp a top end. These might still have to go as I don't have the room but have really enjoyed this.

    any suggestions appreciated. including a van and just get them to Wilmslow Audio!
     
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    SMEagol, Aug 31, 2008
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  15. SMEagol

    Tenson Moderator

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    Just to confirm, you are not putting both driver though the same parts of the xover, right?

    The Lowther is the only thing connected to the inductor, and the tweeter is the only thing connected to the resistors and capacitor?
     
    Tenson, Aug 31, 2008
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  16. SMEagol

    SMEagol Because we wants it...

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    Hi Simon...

    "The Lowther is the only thing connected to the inductor, and the tweeter is the only thing connected to the resistors and capacitor?"

    I wish, that would make things a little clearer!

    Everything is made together the caps and resistors and the toroid share soldered connections between them (acting as one unit if you like), and two wires in and two wires out. Could each driver take what it needs from this? It sounds very good at the mo, I have the tweeter positive connected to one wire and the lowther positive connected to the other... then all the negatives connected direct to the binding post.

    3D said it might blow up - hope he's joking!

    The crossover is a Tommy H design I think, as i asked him what the mastic was for when I sent him pics, antivibration he said. Like I say I ran the lowther direct and it sounded really thin, running it through the xover with the tweeter has improved it - but why?...

    Inside the xover when I got these hornings only the tweeter was connected, see this pic was when I first got them, clearly you can see the blue wire cut which is what prompted me to extend these originally.

    [​IMG]

    What if the blue wire was only there to add beef to the tweeter red and was never connected up in the first place? That would mean the lowther was driven full range...

    Cheers

    Chris
     
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    SMEagol, Aug 31, 2008
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  17. SMEagol

    Tenson Moderator

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    He is not joking, disconnect it before something is damaged.

    I really don't want to be rude, but it seems like you shouldn't be messing around with this. I don't want to encourage you, and then find something blows up. You need to take the speaker to a professional.

    If this Tommy H person designed the xover, why not ask him for a diagram of how it should be connected?
     
    Tenson, Aug 31, 2008
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  18. SMEagol

    RobHolt Moderator

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    This is the first time I've seen animal entrails inside a crossover ...... yuk!
     
    RobHolt, Aug 31, 2008
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  19. SMEagol

    SMEagol Because we wants it...

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    Thanks for all the input everybody, I'll take these to Wilmslow Audio and get them rewired with some decent cables, will remove all vestiges of my work, so they can see the wood for the trees and get these back to how they should sound!

    For the record my work was very neat throughout, so at least I was pleased with that and learned to solder well, my girlfriend thinks I've put in a spirited and determined attempt on something that was essentially dead and liked the sounds along the way.

    I will get these back to how they were, I accept I have no ability with electrics even if its beautifully soldered! Bloodied yet unbowed, gave it a go.

    Goodnight all and thanks for the help. Have emailed Tommy H again.

    Will hire that van...
     
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    SMEagol, Aug 31, 2008
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  20. SMEagol

    Tenson Moderator

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    Hi Chris, You should be happy that you gave it a try, you don't learn anything unless you try.
     
    Tenson, Aug 31, 2008
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