Technics SL1200/1210 debate

Steven Toy said:
I don't dispute the viewing figures but in terms of activity (until last few days) this place is a graveyard. With the likes of SS/Devil around more creative discussions furthering knowledge and new possibilities will be stifled as more creative posters will be put off.

A little pruning may be in order. Indeed when a certain individual was kicked off PFM the place grew from strength to strength and given that the same individual was effectively exiled here this place went into decline in terms of posting activity.

Perhaps it is just a coincidence.
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Hi Steven,

It is true that the number of postings have drop off when compared to a few years ago. Various reasons for this. Some of the main posters of yesteryear don't post any more or post alot less. HiFi Wigwam has mushroomed in a short period of time and this has had an effect.

Forums go through peaks and troughs. That's life. Posters come and go, things change. We are working to improve things.

The Devil (James) has been a regular poster on this forum since August 2003. So you are wrong in saying that it is down to James. He hasn't just arrived here.

Zerogain is not going to improve with your co host re-joining. Maybe you should re-read some of his posts. There are some on the Crossover network to give an example of why he is so popular on the forums.

SCIDB
 
Steven Toy said:
I don't dispute the viewing figures but in terms of activity (until last few days) this place is a graveyard. With the likes of SS/Devil around more creative discussions furthering knowledge and new possibilities will be stifled as more creative posters will be put off.

A little pruning may be in order. Indeed when a certain individual was kicked off PFM the place grew from strength to strength and given that the same individual was effectively exiled here this place went into decline in terms of posting activity.

Perhaps it is just a coincidence.
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Do you ever stop trying to stir up trouble where none exists? For the record, I remain on very good terms with Tony Lonorgan, and have an open invitation to visit him if/when I am ever passing his way. We email one another from time to time. He is similarly welcome to visit me if he would like to.

He has told me that I am welcome back to post on pfm, if/when I apologise to him for the mains cable discussions over there. I think it is mildly amusing to choose not to apologise (not that I care much about other people's mains cables, but on principle) and therefore I remain "banned". This has saved me an awful lot of time to spend doing other things. I still read pfm, but it is actually quite liberating to know that I can't participate.

Tony & I are both happy with this arrangement.
 
sammyo said:
This is all quite funny. Why does the start of this thread seem to be missing?
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Because the whole thread is actually the end of another, unrelated, thread that veered wildly off course. It was 'clipped' from the 'mother' thread and replanted here, to exist on its own.
 
I am starting a new thread regarding my thoughts based on the last few postings. Please have a little look. I think we need some help... have a read and I think you might agree...
 
SCIDB said:
Zerogain is not going to improve with your co host re-joining. Maybe you should re-read some of his posts. There are some on the Crossover network to give an example of why he is so popular on the forums.

SCIDB
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Wow. I'd never heard of the crossover network, but....

"It's ok your comments are noted, so if you want a war you've got one. Watch your back, ya !!!!...." in an email from Marco 3/4/09
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...once you've hit a winning formula, why change it?
 
bottleneck said:
Hi David / Steven

To get back on track - how about a run-down on what you need to do to make the Tecnics deck perform at it's best?

I'd love to know -

1) cost of parts
2) time to do modifcation/complexity
3) what parts are needed
4) what the end results looks like from a visual perspective

I'm not asking in any way to 'do down' the result - I am interested and would genuinely like to know.

I appreciate that one 'tweak' for example an SME V is going to be different from a Jelco etc... it is more the other aspects - PSU changes, support/suspension changes etc.

We've had a lot of debate (pages) without a good description (with photos even better!) of what exactly we're talking about in terms of modifications.

I would not be suprised to find that this has led to much misinterpretation of the finished article.

Cheers
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Okay - let's 'rock and roll'!

[1] already answered

[2] as long as you want, but it takes about 30 mins to get the arm out of an SL1200, 1 hour if you drop the screws. It's an evening's work, stopping to refill your wine glass regularly.

[3] well, I've done two SL1200 projects so far:

[a] Audio Origami RB250, Isonoe Isolation feet, SDS Isoplatmat. This little lot is about £1,000, including the £150 SL1200 I got off ebay.

SME Series V (Koetsu Red K), Isonoe, SDS Isoplatmat, Timestep PSU. This is upwards of £5,000.

To be honest, was just to see whether the SL1200 platform was good enough; the answer was 'yes, almost...'

Going back to [a], the biggest weakness of the SL1200 is the arm. You can get a Funk firm mod with a new (non resonant carbon fibre) tube, but was simpler for me to get an RB250 (and have it rebuilt by Audio Origami. The new arm has a dramatic effect, but tells you that the platter is as resonant as a church bell, and [ii] the isolation is lacking. I solved with the SDS mat, which gives the platter a dull thunk instead of a 'ding' when you hit it. It also adds a bit (but not too much) mass, which seems to damp the 'edgy' quartz lock servo. Many recommend other mats (and I've tried most), but to me the SDS is the best for this particular application. [2] the deck has poor isolation, although it's lots better than any price rival. Technics have had a go at damping it - there's a strong alloy top plate, resin damping and a rubberised plastic base, so it's better than a sheet of MDF or perspex. But it's still a weak point. The Isonoe feet basically float the deck on rubber O-rings. It works well, but they're expensive. I added an Audiophile Base 01 isolation platform too; this really helped as a belt and braces measure.

Before: a punchy, ballsy performer but crude across the midband and hard in the upper mid, and dynamically compressed with a veiled treble.

After: a punchy, ballsy performer with a surprisingly open midband with great focus, and a wide, expansive sound, and lovely filigree detailing in the treble. Surprisingly good dynamics, too.

The Timestep PSU takes away another layer of mush, exposing the fundamental platform as being incredibly detailed and open. Up there with an SME 10 or suchlike. Also, it calms down the DD servo, so it's a little more fluid sounding, whilst retaining the sledgehammer bass of the original. The result is a truly lovely thing to listen to. My only criticism is the left-to-right imaging, which isn't the most wide, and it's not brilliant front-to-back either. Methinks the bearing is partly responsible for this, but there's an upgrade bearing on the horizon from Timestep. The stock bearing is very very good, just not as good as the drive system/chassis.

Ultimately, what I'd have is an unsprung Michell GyroDec subchassis and bearing with a Technics SL1200 motor and Timestep PSU, all set onto an SME 20-like suspension, with an Orbe platter. That would be lovely, but given that the SL1200's metal top-plate, motor, PSU and bearing does so well for £400, the trick would be to make something around these; hence a new plinth for it with far better isolation. But basically, this is effectively an SP10; so if you might as well buy an SP10!

The point is that - go for the first level of mods and you've got a great (amazing, in fact) performer, but if you start really getting the hacksaw out and removing all the weaknesses of the design, you might as well buy and restore an SP10.

My optimum choice would be this: tonearm of your choice (but not stock one), Timestep PSU, SDS mat, Isonoe feet, Audiophile base support - then be amazed by the sound you'll get for around a grand; better than anything stock at twice the price. If you're going to take it much further, get an SP10. If this isn't enough, ermm, get a life!

David
 
For completeness's sake, I do emphasise that all this is for hobbyists in search of maximum sound per pound. If I was given £2k and didn't want to pick up a screwdriver, I'd take a Michell Orbe every time, as I often say. But I'd qualify this and point out that the Orbe isn't necessarily *the best* at the price, it's the one I personally like most! Indeed, I love it, but that's another story. And love it as I do, it's still not as tight in the bass as an SL1200... All the good things in life are subject to an individual's own personal taste, and t/ts are no exception!
 
A few questions for DP:

What is the "problem" with the original PS?

How does the unmodified Technics compare with the PS-modified version (same arm, etc.)?

If the £300 "Timestep" PS (presumably constructed on someone's kitchen table) genuinely catapults the Technics into superdeck territory, then are we really expected to believe that Technics couldn't have achieved this themselves at some point during the past 37 years?

No-one seems to know anything very much about vibration pathways in the design of the Technics 1210. Maybe there aren't any?
 
The Devil said:
A few questions for DP:

What is the "problem" with the original PS?

How does the unmodified Technics compare with the PS-modified version (same arm, etc.)?

If the £300 "Timestep" PS (presumably constructed on someone's kitchen table) genuinely catapults the Technics into superdeck territory, then are we really expected to believe that Technics couldn't have achieved this themselves at some point during the past 37 years?

No-one seems to know anything very much about vibration pathways in the design of the Technics 1210. Maybe there aren't any?
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Hi Devil,

I almost think the Timestep PSU is something of a distraction; it's a nice thing to have, but it's not essential. The stock deck can sound very good, especially with an SDS mat. To use a car analogy, Jag V12s are lovely, but a Rover V8 does the job properly too!

The Timestep PSU gives a slightly smoother sound, fixing the stock SL1200's ever-so-slightly 'brightly lit' upper midband. It gives a fraction better focus, and a tad more fluidity to the rhythms. The thing is, the timing of the SL1200 is its least weakest link. The stock SL1200 times better than almost any belt drive I've heard at any price, with the SDS mat. (And no, I'm not going to going to retract that). What lets the SL1200 down is not timing, it's soundstaging and that brightly lit upper mid. The latter is sorted by the PSU mod, which I presume puts less noise into the motor, hence the quieter, smoother sound.

The Timestep PSU is made by an ex-senior Philips design engineer, latterly specialising in satellites/comms. He's no bodger with a soldering iron...

Why haven't Technics done this before? Of course they could have, but the company is a volume manufacturer. The sums wouldn't add up unless they could sell hundreds of thousands (at least). Technics don't do things just because they can, they have to make a global business case for it. The only reason they didn't discontinue the SL1200 is the continuing demand from the DJ market. The only reason DJs still wanted is that it's far, far better made than the likes of Vestax, etc. Simple as that.

As I've said, an SL1200 with a superior external PSU is called an SP10 (well, to be pedantic, an SP15, as the latter shares the same motor and bearing whereas the SP10 has an even torquier motor), so there's no point dumping too much cash into an SL1200; just buy an SP10!

The 'vibration pathway' is a la Trio Lo-7D; a number of different heavy materials, of different resonant frequencies, seeking to dissipate it/turn it into heat. It works, but only to an extent. The Lo-7D does the same but to a much greater degree (more mass; over twenty different materials inside inside including wood, resins, plastics, rubbers, metals, etc.). The isolation of the SL1200 is good, but not great. That's why Isonoe feet have become the Technics magic bullet. I still don't think they're the best that can be done, but they're pretty effective all the same.

Hope this helps,

David
 
Hi David,

Thanks. It's certainly interesting to read.

David Price said:
What lets the SL1200 down is not timing, it's soundstaging and that brightly lit upper mid. The latter is sorted by the PSU mod, which I presume puts less noise into the motor, hence the quieter, smoother sound.
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How is the (unmodified) Technics' motor driven & how is the platter speed controlled? i.e. what is the physics behind all this wizardry?
 
Bub,

The motor is driven by an AN6675 chip. Which is a custom Technics thing, I think. This basically switches the power to the coils in time with the rotation. There's another chip (AN6680) that looks at the speed of the platter via a sensor and gives the AN6675 feedback to control the power applied. Together you get speed control.

I think that if you mess too much with the mass of the platter it will all go horribly wrong, unless you change the configuration of the servo. I don't see the raw PSU as particularly significant. I've never touched an SL12x0.

Paul
 

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