the Term SET with valves...explain?
- Thread starter Ya-Boo
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bottleneck
talks a load of rubbish
The valve SET is a small group of audiophiles, who congragate together.
A single SET is a SAT and more than one SAT makes a SET.
SETS or SATS can be recognised by heavy stubble, and occasionally blue pointy hats.
SETS and SATS hold various beliefs close to their hearts, in the book of SET.
gona stop, getting bored of making this sh*t up now!
single ended triode.
normally lower power, often clearer cleaner sounding amps. often a bit more cash. technical descriptions to follow from............?
A single SET is a SAT and more than one SAT makes a SET.
SETS or SATS can be recognised by heavy stubble, and occasionally blue pointy hats.
SETS and SATS hold various beliefs close to their hearts, in the book of SET.
gona stop, getting bored of making this sh*t up now!
single ended triode.
normally lower power, often clearer cleaner sounding amps. often a bit more cash. technical descriptions to follow from............?
themadhippy
seen it done it smokin it
SET=Stupidly Expesive Toys
wadia-miester
Mighty Rearranger
We had a little acronym at my old works S.F.N. Something for nothing, quite apt in a few cases 
I-S
Good Evening.... Infidel
SET = Singled Ended Triode, as already stated.
OTL = Output Transformer Less. This is a design which doesn't have output transformers. Because of the high output impedance of valves (and the reason for the transformers in the first place), OTL designs require a great many valves in parallel. They're huge, inefficient and incredibly expensive.
OTL = Output Transformer Less. This is a design which doesn't have output transformers. Because of the high output impedance of valves (and the reason for the transformers in the first place), OTL designs require a great many valves in parallel. They're huge, inefficient and incredibly expensive.
7_V
I want a Linn - in a DB9
SET amps (single ended triode) are known for having a very sweet and revealing mid-band but sometimes (not always) lacking a bit of top and bottom. They are much belov'd by many purists as they are the simplest power amplifiers in terms of number of components and signal path.
The main shortcoming with SETs is the lack of power which means that very efficient speakers must be used to get any volume. That's why they are often associated with large horn loudspeakers. A 300B SET will put out 8-10 watts. Other valves like 845s will output about 20 watts but need very high voltages. Different followers have different favourite valves.
There are different ways to design SETs, including using transformers instead of capacitors and various methods of power regulation. The distortion generally increases with power so they sound great at lower listening levels, not so good at higher volumes where our hearing is in any case less sensitive to such things. They generally go into clipping and overload in a much more pleasant way than solid-state amplifiers, which is why many people think that an SET watt is bigger than a solid-state watt.
Because of the low power output, parallel single-ended (2 valve) or push-pull designs are often used instead. Whilst often maintaining some of the SET strengths and even improving on them in some areas (often bass), these are considered to be slightly inferior in terms of the mid-band transparency.
SETs - I like them.
Why do you ask, Ya-Boo?
The main shortcoming with SETs is the lack of power which means that very efficient speakers must be used to get any volume. That's why they are often associated with large horn loudspeakers. A 300B SET will put out 8-10 watts. Other valves like 845s will output about 20 watts but need very high voltages. Different followers have different favourite valves.
There are different ways to design SETs, including using transformers instead of capacitors and various methods of power regulation. The distortion generally increases with power so they sound great at lower listening levels, not so good at higher volumes where our hearing is in any case less sensitive to such things. They generally go into clipping and overload in a much more pleasant way than solid-state amplifiers, which is why many people think that an SET watt is bigger than a solid-state watt.
Because of the low power output, parallel single-ended (2 valve) or push-pull designs are often used instead. Whilst often maintaining some of the SET strengths and even improving on them in some areas (often bass), these are considered to be slightly inferior in terms of the mid-band transparency.
SETs - I like them.
Why do you ask, Ya-Boo?
I,m trying to find amplification that brings the Merlins bottom end to life, I know Merlin used a SIM p5/w5 combi to great effect
The Merlins were the last part of the upgrade jigsaw
unfortunatly with my gear they didnt live up to the hype
that said I,ve borrowed a Sim & phathos integrated to try for a couple of days........A quick listen with the sim has gave me a bit more hope that a solution could be found rather than having to sell them.......the speaker maker recommends certain valve amps that are A. loada £££££ B. not available here so looking into
similar spec dyuff available here.
Kev.
The Merlins were the last part of the upgrade jigsaw
unfortunatly with my gear they didnt live up to the hype
that said I,ve borrowed a Sim & phathos integrated to try for a couple of days........A quick listen with the sim has gave me a bit more hope that a solution could be found rather than having to sell them.......the speaker maker recommends certain valve amps that are A. loada £££££ B. not available here so looking into
similar spec dyuff available here.
Kev.
I can't imagine that a SET amp would be able to bring the bottom end of the merlins under control and give the bass life. It'd more likely turn it into mush.
Lt Cdr Data
om
its a slight wrong idea, I have an SET, paralled 300b, so it gives double the power, 20 watts.
Its running in zero feedback, which makes the bass even more flabby and hard to control.
Yet for me ATM, its incomparable. the vibrancy and colour you just don't get elsewhere.
its got more bass than some transistor amps I know well. Its more fruity but I never get the impression its a slug.
I am a sceptic, more likely cynic as far as most esoteric audiophilia goes, however I really beleive in zero feedback now. Trouble is, you need triodes to do this as all other devices distort too much.
triodes = lower power and other theoretical consequences like lower bandwidth.
I am using mine with some 86db harbeth compact 7s, and they are superb with them, odd as they are considered a big tranny amp. type.
however I am seeking something more sensitive, as I want more directness and well its hard to put into words, 'drive the room' more tangible, touchable almost. compact 7s are great tho.
Its running in zero feedback, which makes the bass even more flabby and hard to control.
Yet for me ATM, its incomparable. the vibrancy and colour you just don't get elsewhere.
its got more bass than some transistor amps I know well. Its more fruity but I never get the impression its a slug.
I am a sceptic, more likely cynic as far as most esoteric audiophilia goes, however I really beleive in zero feedback now. Trouble is, you need triodes to do this as all other devices distort too much.
triodes = lower power and other theoretical consequences like lower bandwidth.
I am using mine with some 86db harbeth compact 7s, and they are superb with them, odd as they are considered a big tranny amp. type.
however I am seeking something more sensitive, as I want more directness and well its hard to put into words, 'drive the room' more tangible, touchable almost. compact 7s are great tho.
SETs are a no-no with Merlins, they simply don't have enough power - regardless of what people say. I tried Art Audio Diavlos and whilst they sounded smooooooth, they lacked balls when driving the Merlins despite using a BP power supply.
OTL's however are a different story, the bass out the the Berning ZH270 is fabulous (shame there's a 12 month waiting list) This is not a true OTL and hence is both cheaper and uses less valves.
Atmasphere will work well, Graff may be an option, although the GM20 is too weedy even in mono form. Joule Electra offer 30% on overseas orders, so the cost does come down, but you are still talking big bucks.
The Berning will cost about £3K delivered to your door. May well be worth the wait. If you cannot get the bass you want out of VSM's with the Sim Pre/Power combo, then you need some very very big speakers with at least 2 10" drive units. D100's anyone
OTL's however are a different story, the bass out the the Berning ZH270 is fabulous (shame there's a 12 month waiting list) This is not a true OTL and hence is both cheaper and uses less valves.
Atmasphere will work well, Graff may be an option, although the GM20 is too weedy even in mono form. Joule Electra offer 30% on overseas orders, so the cost does come down, but you are still talking big bucks.
The Berning will cost about £3K delivered to your door. May well be worth the wait. If you cannot get the bass you want out of VSM's with the Sim Pre/Power combo, then you need some very very big speakers with at least 2 10" drive units. D100's anyone
SCIDB
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Hi,
The Single ended Triode (SET) amplifiers were the first amplifier many years ago. The triode is a very linear device so amps can be built with no feedback. The circuits can be very simple. They are run in class A so can use a lot of power. They can offer big strengths in the mid range. Most triodes are low power devices but you can get high power transmitting triodes which do use very big voltages. As Steve M as mentioned, they are best with sensitive speakers.
They do suffer downsides. The SET needs a high quality output transformer that can handle DC current without going into saturation. This require a high quality output transformer which is usually big & costly
They require a very good filtered power supply to cut down noise & hum. In push pull amps you can some cancelling of noise & distortion that can lead to lower distortion figure. Less power supply hum so less filtering is used.
For more power, lower distortion, lower noise, push pull amps were developed. On paper, it looks like SET should be no good.
But a Triode is very linear and can have low distortion figures. The distortion is mainly low order even harmonic. At best you don't notice it at best it's quite pleasant. Using high quality output transformers will cut drop the saturation & bandwidth problems. Use of high quality regulated supplies such as choke input will kill a lot of noise & distortion. Use of good quality components & circuits help as well.
A push pull amp has a phase inverter so that the 2 output devices receive half of the signal, SET don't need this & this could be a reason why they can sound so good.
OTL (output Transformer Less) designs work on the idea that a lot of the distortion is due to the output transformer. The transformer can produce a lot of distortion, more than the valve. They can suffer saturation, noise & bandwidth problems. Using a amp without one can rid you of these problems. The big downside is that the valve is a high impedance device so you will need a number connected up to reduce the impedance. They end up being complicated to make & sound quality may not be any better.
The Merlin speakers look on paper quite valve friendly. They look like they can handle a good SET. I would try something like the Border Patrol as this has got choke input supplies on the various parts of the circuit (3 or 6 depending on which one you go for) & decent output transformers. Whether you like the sound will be up to you & you may prefer a quality push pull design. It would be interesting to find out.
I have been a SET user for quite a few years & believe, if done right, have more strengths than weaknesses. They can produce very enjoyable sounds.
SCIDB
The Single ended Triode (SET) amplifiers were the first amplifier many years ago. The triode is a very linear device so amps can be built with no feedback. The circuits can be very simple. They are run in class A so can use a lot of power. They can offer big strengths in the mid range. Most triodes are low power devices but you can get high power transmitting triodes which do use very big voltages. As Steve M as mentioned, they are best with sensitive speakers.
They do suffer downsides. The SET needs a high quality output transformer that can handle DC current without going into saturation. This require a high quality output transformer which is usually big & costly
They require a very good filtered power supply to cut down noise & hum. In push pull amps you can some cancelling of noise & distortion that can lead to lower distortion figure. Less power supply hum so less filtering is used.
For more power, lower distortion, lower noise, push pull amps were developed. On paper, it looks like SET should be no good.
But a Triode is very linear and can have low distortion figures. The distortion is mainly low order even harmonic. At best you don't notice it at best it's quite pleasant. Using high quality output transformers will cut drop the saturation & bandwidth problems. Use of high quality regulated supplies such as choke input will kill a lot of noise & distortion. Use of good quality components & circuits help as well.
A push pull amp has a phase inverter so that the 2 output devices receive half of the signal, SET don't need this & this could be a reason why they can sound so good.
OTL (output Transformer Less) designs work on the idea that a lot of the distortion is due to the output transformer. The transformer can produce a lot of distortion, more than the valve. They can suffer saturation, noise & bandwidth problems. Using a amp without one can rid you of these problems. The big downside is that the valve is a high impedance device so you will need a number connected up to reduce the impedance. They end up being complicated to make & sound quality may not be any better.
The Merlin speakers look on paper quite valve friendly. They look like they can handle a good SET. I would try something like the Border Patrol as this has got choke input supplies on the various parts of the circuit (3 or 6 depending on which one you go for) & decent output transformers. Whether you like the sound will be up to you & you may prefer a quality push pull design. It would be interesting to find out.
I have been a SET user for quite a few years & believe, if done right, have more strengths than weaknesses. They can produce very enjoyable sounds.
SCIDB
No!
The merlin's really sing with OTL's. Bobby reckons they are great with SET's, as do many other pipe smoking slipper wearers stateside. The truth is, if you listen to a wide variety of music and reasonably high levels, you need 50-70w of valve power to bring them to life.
I don't know of any SET's that offer that, the BP20 would be interesting but the Art Diavlo with BP PSU just did not have the grunt.
The VSM's are perfect fro OTL's, their impedence hardly drops below 10ohms and is very benign in nature. But whilst 10 - 20w of valves will drive them and provide a glorious midrange, mosre power is required to really open them up.
bottleneck
talks a load of rubbish
hi ya-boo.
I cant argue against a border patrol, its the amp I have and it with stay with me till they prise it out of my dead and clammy hands!
There is a clarity and dynamic interest with a good SET amp that is hard to achieve from other means. I'd agree with Dean - if a BP SET doesnt light their fires, then forget about low power SETs. Or forget about the speakers !
You could explore higher power SETs. Havent tried these as high power SETs are fiercesomely expensive.
NB
I cant believe 2 Graaf GM20's in monoblocks wouldnt be enough. Thats 60w p/channel, all valve! surely?!?! Even second hand, GM20's are 1600 apiece (and you'd need 2 to go dual mono) so I think thats out of budget anyway?
By the way have you tried a Belcanto? its my favorite solid state amp, and has some of the virtues of a SET I think, loses other qualities, and gains some more still (loss of musical body, loss of roundedness, increased detail, slam and power) can be cheap on audiogon..
or..
a big fat class A amp, like a Gamut or a CJ MF2700, or borg cube etc?
I cant argue against a border patrol, its the amp I have and it with stay with me till they prise it out of my dead and clammy hands!
There is a clarity and dynamic interest with a good SET amp that is hard to achieve from other means. I'd agree with Dean - if a BP SET doesnt light their fires, then forget about low power SETs. Or forget about the speakers !
You could explore higher power SETs. Havent tried these as high power SETs are fiercesomely expensive.
NB
I cant believe 2 Graaf GM20's in monoblocks wouldnt be enough. Thats 60w p/channel, all valve! surely?!?! Even second hand, GM20's are 1600 apiece (and you'd need 2 to go dual mono) so I think thats out of budget anyway?
By the way have you tried a Belcanto? its my favorite solid state amp, and has some of the virtues of a SET I think, loses other qualities, and gains some more still (loss of musical body, loss of roundedness, increased detail, slam and power) can be cheap on audiogon..
or..
a big fat class A amp, like a Gamut or a CJ MF2700, or borg cube etc?
Lt Cdr Data
om
the die-hard set brigade is taking over the forum
