Upgrade advice.

[Weekender]

Hi,
Long time Lurker...
I have approx. £1.5-2k to spend to upgrade my system:
Linn LP12/OC9/Ittok/Lingo MkI/Cambridge Audio Phono amp.
Arcam Alpha 8 CD
Arcam Alpha 8 Amp
B&W P4 Linn K400 biwire

I'd like to concentrate on amp/speakers and then CD. My listening is split 70/30 vinyl to CD. I still buy a lot of vinyl new/used. So far I have demo'd ATC SCM11 and Cyrus 6 and 8 amps. I was impressed by the ATC's with vocal/acoustic music (Norah Jones/Tim Buckley/John Martyn) but they had nowhere near enough bass for my taste in rock and dance music (e.g. Phoenix, Jeff Buckley, Disco and House). I have heard the Cyrus equipment can be bass light. The demo room was the same size as our own - about 15ft by 15ft. The ATCs were replaced by £600ish Monitor Audio floorstanders - sorry can't remember model - but they did not impress much compared to the P4.

Having bought equipment exdem/secondhand from dealers before and not had any problems I would like to do so again as it represents good value to me. For example I have seen Roksan Kandy MkIII CD and Amp for £800 from a dealer - is this a worthwhile upgrade?

Given my current set up what sort of stuff would you recommend I seek out? Floorstanders for a small room such as Proac, PMC? B&W?

The old kit will be transferred to front room. We have an LG 5000 42in TV and PS3. Neither myself or partner are huge movie buffs so full AV not really reqd.

Sorry for the rambling post and Thanks in advance.

 

[Neil]

The ATCs are nice speakers but some consider them a bit 'lean'. I've never been a fan of cyrus amplification after the Cyrus 3. What do you not like about the P4s?
I'd listen to the Kandy but think you'd find it different as opposed to an upgrade.
Looking at your current system (and presuming you've been reasonably happy with it) I'd - bear with me on this one - pop down to a local Richers..........
......... and listen to the CA Azur 840c and 840a. I'm certain you'll be very pleasantly surprised. I was.
I'd replace the K400 biwire with some of the cheaper Kimber range in single wire configuration (4VS or 8VS, maybe 2nd hand 4TC) or NVA LS5 (Mr Dunn will make up the length you want).

 

[Weekender]

The ATCs are nice speakers but some consider them a bit 'lean'. I've never been a fan of cyrus amplification after the Cyrus 3. What do you not like about the P4s?

Well I suppose that's the problem - I do like them but they are about 8 years old and I've got the itch...

I'd listen to the Kandy but think you'd find it different as opposed to an upgrade.
Looking at your current system (and presuming you've been reasonably happy with it) I'd - bear with me on this one - pop down to a local Richers..........
......... and listen to the CA Azur 840c and 840a. I'm certain you'll be very pleasantly surprised. I was.

Worth a go - they have one in central Manchester now...

I'd replace the K400 biwire with some of the cheaper Kimber range in single wire configuration (4VS or 8VS, maybe 2nd hand 4TC) or NVA LS5 (Mr Dunn will make up the length you want).

S'funny I was very impressed with this when I upgrade to it...can't remember what from...

 

[Rocket 88]

I bought a Sumo Athena pre off Ebay and when I went to collect I noticed a pair of ATC standmounters in situ..
'What are they like' I asked.
'They make everything sound awful', he replied. ('Except the odd record which is excellent', he added.)
It was late and I didnt get to hear them though..
jack

 

[RobHolt]

Well I suppose that's the problem - I do like them but they are about 8 years old and I've got the itch...

Put some cream on it and don't scratch

If you really want to go out and experiment then of course you should scratch that itch but if you cannot find anything specifically wrong with the B&W then keep them.
I've a house full of vintage speakers of varying shapes, sizes and design. Most are fully competitive with anything sold today - better in many regards unless you are looking for a niche product. These range from 20 to over 50 years old so your 8 year old B&Ws are just babies. Speaker design progress is extremely slow and often goes into reverse!

Your amplifier is fine and should only be changed if you need more power, or just want to experiment. Sonic differences between competent (and the Arcam is competent) solid state amplifiers are tiny when operating within spec.
You can choose an odd-ball design to impose a sonic signature if you wish but there are far easier and more elegant ways to fine tune a system.
Cyrus amplifiers are well designed, have good power supplies and are ruler flat to below 20hz. They aren't bass light (they can't be) so ignore what unfounded rumours might be flying the internet and give them a fair hearing.


PS: If the OC9 is the 80s original you should think about a new cartridge. The new OC9ML is excellent as a drop-in replacement but the AT33PTG is a smidgen better, and usually a little cheaper.

 

[Weekender]

Cheers Rob that's food for thought. The OC9 is new model.

 

[scott_01]

Hi there weekender

You seem keen to experiment so why not. If you are just after 'more' of the same sound without changing the tonal balance or perceived 'pace' of your music then I would suggest you keep your speakers. P.S. I've not heard them.

The rest of the set up looks perfectly fine. A few years ago I had the Alpha 8R amp and the 8SE CD player on Dem and thought they sounded great into the B+W 601S2 and 603,( I haven't thought much else has done since mind you).

CD Player
Knowing the difference between my CA 840-C and my old Pioneer PDS505 Precision I would expect that the C840 would make a noticeable positive difference to your listening. It is neutral, has optical and spdif DAC inputs (for pc audio or home theater receivers), and it's very well built. Richer should allow you to try before you buy. If the 8 CD has a digital output then you may also want to look at the Cambridge Dacmagic which should give most of the sound at less cost. Other Dacs are available...

AMP
Your speakers have a reasonable sensitivity of 88Db but the nominal impedance drops to around 3.5 ohms at times. From that and the Alpha 8 specs I would say that the amp is just about fine. However, I think that as long as an amp remains linear in distortion terms, more power can control your drive units better and deliver better sound.

A cheap way of seeing if this holds true for you and your speakers is to get hold of an Alpha 8 P and try bi amping*, shouldn't cost more than 150 quid. If you like that then try the Cambridge Amp or Amp / Pre-amp. The speakers may respond better to biamping or just more power from one source, I guess that will be cross over dependent.

I would definitely listen to amps, before buying. Especially 2nd hand NAIM models, IME the earlier NAIM amps and B+W speakers produced a sound that for me was a definite acquired taste.


Vinyl
I'd leave that, it looks good.

Speaker cable
I wouldn't change that. However, if you really want to I've 1.5 m of JPS Labs stuff hanging around that you can borrow to have a listen to. If you hear a difference then you may want to spend money on it, if you don't then don't worry about it again. If (like me) you can't get rid of the idea that it makes some difference then for a cheap alternative try anticables.

General

If you listen to Cyrus make sure you budget for the PSXR becuase IME the PSXR made a real difference to my old Cyrus Pre, so much that I think that it was only half the product without it.

The SCM 11s just aren't going to produce the same bass as the P4s with the same amp (arcam or cyrus). They are much smaller and can't shift the same amount of air. Smaller speakers often like more power. You could try them with one of those room-configurable a DSP Subs from XTZ or a traditional Bass reinforcement model from REL, but that would increase the price. Properly blended in Sub and standmounts should give you the clarity on acoustic music and the welly on dance that you require, a powered sub may take some of the load off your amp.

I would consider a foray into the world of bass trapping and acoustic treatment if you can put up with the aesthetics, The performance gain to price ratio is way above that of most component changes. You can DIY at next to no cost (45 quid for a 6inch deep corner absorber using Wickes high density board. )

Good luck.

* or bridging if the P4s aren't bi-wire and the Arcam is bridgeable

 

[zanash]

having had a friend who owned both the same amp and cdp ....I'd suggest changing these ...

my mates amp had serious reliability issue and must have gone back four times in two years ....he swapped to a quad 909 and 99 combo ...which out performed the arcam by a very large margin . To the point that he wished he had bought the quad orgiginally ....now this depends on wiether the quad sound appeals to you ..

as to cdp if you want no fuss then look at the quad 99cdp2 this could mean you could do away with the 99 preamp if you don't listen to much/any records [though if you do then keep the 99 pre as its got a good phono pre amp relatively]

I'd stay with the speakers you have ....I think you will be amazed at the effect of changing the amp ....I've always found that speakers will give much more than you think before need to be upgraded ...the limiting factor being the amp

 

[mikedefacto]

bloody hell they let anyone on here these days... don't they ageing prettyboy?

BTW I support Zanash's Quad recommendation above...

 

[Weekender]

Ha - hello Mike. Thanks for all the responses. The choice is bewildering and somewhat daunting...where to start?
Room treatments probably out on the aesthetic/Mrs front.
Have thought about the Alpha 8P before Scott - good point.
Haven't looked at the Quads - will check them out.
Problem is trying before buying when I want to go secondhand.
I'm tempted by Naim (NAP 250/Hicap/72) given affinity with Linn/reputation/service/and as a once and for all upgrade and also there's a temptation to move both the amp and the speakers into the front room for AV. Especially if Naim & P4s don't go together. Its probably a lazy option but if its good enough for the Flat Earthers on PinkFish...

 

[Neil]

I'd have a good long listen to Naim before going down that route tbh. Why? Well, I was in an upgrading mood a few years ago - I had had Quad and Meridian systems in terms of amp/CD source and had that itch to try a contrasting system (the Meridian was great but... you know what it's like.....). I thought I'd have a go at Naim (Brand well thought of/amp based on sound RCA circuit and at that time no cable geekery to worry about - I still recall the look on the dealers face when I asked about upgrading the cables used to Kimber!!). I had a very nice afternoon at the dealership - no sales pressure, good music and coffee - and was very impressed by the clean, dynamic sound. I went off and bought a 72(I think - good pre) and 140(?) power and armed with a chord RCA-DIN slotted it into my system. I was very happy for a couple of months but then found that I wasn't listening to music as much or for as long as I had previously. Off to the dealership where a Hicap powersupply for the pre' was recommended. This indeed made a difference, but perhaps not as much as the price would lead one to believe ;-).
Thinking about what a "proper" Naim system would sound like I was initiated into the world of active/passive "six pack" Naim stuff by a friend who - obviously - had a lot of cash to spend on his system. I was very impressed but sadly I could never afford such a system. My conclusion - the 'lower end' of Naimness is dynamic, fast etc but the upgrade route is a world of pain, and hard on the wallet. .............. but I might give it a go again at some future date.

Oh - I'd seriously have a listen to the CA kit!

 

[Weekender]

Hmm. Been watching a 250/HiCap/72 on ebay and they went for £734/£309/£352.

I think I might prefer to buy of Hifi forums/dealers than strangers on ebay.