Upgrade existing cd player or buy a new one?

[dos]

Instead of forking out for a new cd player (£600+) am thinking of upgrading my existing Rotel RCD-02. A company called sercal are offering the following 2 options.
I like the rotel but find it a little harsh after getting back into vinyl in a big (ish) way and figure this could work out cheaper than buying new or the riskier option of 2nd hand.
Does anybody have any experience of doing this or would care to comment in any way?

Rotel RCD-02

Level 1
Upgraded low ESR PSU capacitors
Schottky diodes for analogue and digital circuits
1X S Power + 5V low noise regulator<LI style="COLOR: #000000">2X S Power +15V & -15V low noise regulators
2X Toroidal Transformer & PSU
Black Gate (STD) Analogue stage power supply caps
Analogue output stage using quality, high speed, low distortion LM4562NA op-amps
Black Gate (STD) capacitors used for key Analogue stage (DAC)
Black Gate (STD) capacitors used for key Digital stage (DAC)
Black Gate (N) capacitors used for signal line (DAC - Opamps)
Sercal C1 Clock
DC cap bypass
Chassis resonance control
Spike protection on mains input to transformer
Price: £257.44 ex vat

Level 2
Upgraded low ESR PSU capacitors
Schottky diodes for analogue and digital circuits
4X S Power + 5V low noise regulator<LI style="COLOR: #000000">2X S Power +15V & -15V low noise regulators
2X Toroidal Transformer & PSU
Black Gate (STD) Analogue stage power supply caps
Analogue output stage using quality, high speed, low distortion LM4562NA op-amps
Black Gate (STD) capacitors used for key Analogue stage (DAC)
Black Gate (STD) capacitors used for key Digital stage (DAC)
Black Gate (N) capacitors used for signal line (DAC - Opamps)
Sercal C1 Clock
DC cap bypass
Chassis resonance control
Spike protection on mains input to transformer
Price: £442.54 ex vat

Any help/ comments/ criticism much appreciated!

 

[Tenson]

It looks like a good mod package to me, New output stage, clock and power regulators are the main things.

What seems odd to me is that they want nearly twice as much for just 3 extra regulators.

I might ask them to do the level 2 mod package without all the cap changes and for the same price as level 1, or close.

So level 2 but without:
Upgraded low ESR PSU capacitors
Black Gate (STD) Analogue stage power supply caps
Black Gate (STD) capacitors used for key Analogue stage (DAC)
Black Gate (STD) capacitors used for key Digital stage (DAC)
Black Gate (N) capacitors used for signal line (DAC - Opamps)
Chassis resonance control
Spike protection on mains input to transformer

Most of that will make a very small difference IMO, but will take them a lot of labor to do. See what they say!

Have to say, for the same price you could afford one of my fully modified SRC2496 DACs. One of the things that really stands out is a complete lack of harshness or grit in the top end, but without artificially smoothing over detail. There is a recent review here - http://www.affordableaudio.org/aa2008-01.pdf

 

[dos]

Hi Tenson,
Sorry in advance for my ignorance but here are some questions:
- Would your dac give have the same affect as the modifications?
- would the rotel benefit enough from this as to avoid shelling out for a better cd player?
- to accept your dac would the rotel need to be modified also (i.e. how is the thing attached - i looked at your website)

Basically I am looking to get that analogue sound (ie avoiding the current harshness/brightness) that i get from my planar 3 with the minimum/ most cost effective outlay. Am I being stupid or should I just plump for a new player?

 

[Tenson]

Hi Dos,

A DAC does the conversion from the digital data on the disc to the analogue music signal. So you would connect the DAC to the digital output of the Rotel.

The Rotel then feeds the 1's and 0's from the disc to the DAC and that turns it in to music. It can completely transform the sound. You could even sell the Rotel and start using a more affordable player just to feed the digital data to the DAC as it is pretty insensitive to the player feeding it.

If you want to try it on sale or return you are welcome to. Email me if you have more questions. This forum is not really for selling stuff, but it was a viable option so I mentioned it.

 

[rollo]

Hi Tenson,
Sorry in advance for my ignorance but here are some questions:
- Would your dac give have the same affect as the modifications?
- would the rotel benefit enough from this as to avoid shelling out for a better cd player?
- to accept your dac would the rotel need to be modified also (i.e. how is the thing attached - i looked at your website)

Basically I am looking to get that analogue sound (ie avoiding the current harshness/brightness) that i get from my planar 3 with the minimum/ most cost effective outlay. Am I being stupid or should I just plump for a new player?

All sounds like the mod may sound good. can you listen to a Rotel that has been modded. Whilst our opinions are well intended they are just that. Your taste in sound is subjective to your ears.
Go out and listen to a few players and make a decision. If you do go for the mod Tensons recco is a valid solution IMO as well. Have fun.
rollo

 

[dos]

Tenson, another stupid question:

Why don't more people have cheaper cd players hooked up with a decent dac?
Would my amp do the dac justice (a rotel ra-04)?

Many thanks for putting up with me!

 

[Tenson]

Well, I think more people should have good DACs and more affordable players. Also a lot of DACs are more susceptible to the quality of the player, but there are a handful of others such as the Benchmark DAC1 and Chord DAC64 that have a following of people using them with DVD players and such like to feed the data.

 

[sq225917]

his reference unit....

4 new transformers, over 20 regulators + boutiqe parts, i'm just guessing but he's thrown over £800 in that player. you could get a cambridge audio 840c for that price and still add a few regulators into it.

and the CA has a reclocking upsampling dac with balanced output and digital input from 44.1-192khz and accepts between 16 and 24 bit signals. and it's a current unit with a warranty and resale value.

save your money sell your player and put it toward something better. mods should be the icing on the cake for a great player not a necessity for a mediocre one.

 

[dos]

his reference unit....

4 new transformers, over 20 regulators + boutiqe parts, i'm just guessing but he's thrown over £800 in that player. you could get a cambridge audio 840c for that price and still add a few regulators into it.

and the CA has a reclocking upsampling dac with balanced output and digital input from 44.1-192khz and accepts between 16 and 24 bit signals. and it's a current unit with a warranty and resale value.

save your money sell your player and put it toward something better. mods should be the icing on the cake for a great player not a necessity for a mediocre one.

The rotel only cost me £100 from a friend. I appreciate the argument but maybe a decent dac as earlier suggested is the most cost effective way to more satisfying listening?

 

[greg788]

Recent experiences have shown me that your situation is a tough one. Especially with an analog source for reference.

To be honest I'm not impressed with the current state of digital. I say this after comparing several expensive cd players: Naim CDX2 (which is now sold), Primare CD31 and Rega Saturn.

My issue with them is the same as yours: harshness.

At the advice of a friend I picked up a Sony Playstation 1 for peanuts off ebay. I prefer this goofy little thing to those above.

I've never liked the idea of upgrading an audio component with better parts, especially cd players. You'll never get your money back out of it and, when you go to sell it, most buyers will be understandably hesitant over fears of bodgery. Plus, the sonic result is very hit or miss. If you're a tweaker and can do it yourself and thus experiment on inexpensive players then that's one thing. But relying on someone else to throw boutique parts at a design optimized around it's current parts is prone to sonic ambiguity IMO. The key is always the basic circuit. If that's good then fine but you can't fix minor or major flaws with boutique parts.

Another thing about adding boutique parts: look at that picture in the response above mine. Those parts weren't meant to be there in the first place and I worry about solder joints breaking, microphonics, RF contamination, etc. I'm no expert on these things but that nasty spaghetti bowl doesn't give me a good vibe.

I recently read a review comparing a stock integrated amplifier to the same one professionally modified to the hilt (a couple thousand dollars worth). While reviewers always put a positive spin on things, I still got the strong indication that the modded amplifier sounded weird and untidy.

This professional modding thing is even more true of cd players, which have horrid resale value anyway and are most prone to failure (transports and lasers). Plus, thanks to Sony and Philips constantly jacking with their transports, you can't assume you'll be able to get a new transport or laser -- and such repairs are often costly (I know they are with Naim, at least).

I think upgrading the opamps in the output stage is a good thing -- as long as the modifier knows what he's doing. Opamps are twitchy little buggers and the wrong implementation can cause more harm than good. Beyond that I certainly wouldn't bother.

Personally I think your best bets are either to try outboard DA converters or, better yet, just start demo'ing new cd players.

The outboard DA converter route is hit or miss since it's dependent on the quality of the output from the cd player. Many (especially inexpensive ones) have a digital output just for the sake of having one since everyone else does it. Some work well OK, many don't. I tried doing this once by running an expensive DA converter off a Roksan Kandy Mark I (a truly nasty sounding little beast). The end result was a veiled and boring presentation regardless the digital cable I tried. Naim has always held that using an outboard DA converter doesn't really reap sonic benefits and thus don't even bother putting a digital output on their players (although this may simply be marketing spin to keep you in their upgrade path).

Don't assume spending more money on a new player will bring satisfaction, either. Like I said, I've tried several players recently and none impressed me too much. I went up the Naim upgrade path from 5i to 5x to CDX2. None were keepers. The sweet spot was the 5x and I often wished I still had it.

I can't give any specific cd player recommendations, though, other than to try as many as you can *in your system*. The Saturn wasn't bad but I found it a bit "uptilted" psychoacoustically -- the bass was too "fast" and "overdamped", which made it sound too top heavy. Plus it sounded "digital" to me (something at least Naim players generally avoid in spite of the harshness). Owning a record player, you'll recognize what I'm talking about instantly when you try various players in your system ...

 

[sq225917]

the digital outs on the rotel are pretty good, clean and low jitter so an add on dac will give you something and there are some fine 2nd hand options from benchmark, chord etc.

 

[dos]

Thanks for the advice everyone - i've being doing a little research also and have learnt quite a lot in a short time! I've never thought of going down the dac route but it could be a relatively inexpensive to achieve more satisfying listening (to be honest the cd sound is driving me up the wall - my wife doesn't understand??? - which is understandable)

I paid £100 for the rotel (approx £350-400 new), a bargain, therefore utilising a dac to get an improvement is somewhat more attractive than spending £700 plus an a new cd player.

Question: Does anybody have exp with the behringer modded dac? http://www.audiosmile.co.uk/src2496.htm

Can anybody recommend a good value 2nd hand dac to look out for?

By the way i tried another hifi forum and this is definately the most useful - thks for putting up with my 'basic' questions, i appreciate it!

 

[DavidF]

You'll never get your money back out of it and, when you go to sell it, most buyers will be understandably hesitant over fears of bodgery.

Absolutely, agreed, modding instantly reduces the value of equip to virtually zero.

Plus, the sonic result is very hit or miss.

I use a modded arcam A5, unmodded (i'm told) gives very luke warm results.

It now gives rather better results (IMO) ...but is some thing I would n't have dreamed of doing myself.. I left it to someone experinced in audio electroncs and soldering (There is clearly an art to this.....)

I gave modding a go and soon realised the learniing curve was a steep one.....is very easy to get a dry joint

I've never liked the idea of upgrading an audio component with better parts, especially cd players.
...

It has its downsides, agreed.

However I think my A5 sonically punches over its value.

BTW FwIW I am not a strong beleiver in the cheapo dvd + DAC scenrio for sonic gains.....I would use a reasonably good quality cdplayer as a base.

I wouldn't be ina rush to sell the Rtel (IMO of course)


edit; might i suggest....have a word with simon about the modded berhinger dac (one sounded good in my system a while ago) and Zanash re modded arcam A5.

Have a listen ...see what you think.

 

[dos]

So, the rotel with a dac seems to be worth trying - any dac suggestions?

 

[DavidF]

I used an entech 203.2 for a bit....breathed life into an (early) mission dad5 (an old player)...ever more so when (again) pete had breathed on it.

I had to inport the damn thing from the states (not an experince i would recommend....but thats another story), so the enttech may not be your best choice. There are many others.

They often come up on e bay.

I think you'll have the choice of over sampling or on oversampling (NOS), showing my ignorance here, I'm not the person to sdvise which. I think its six and two threes? Any on eput me right?

 

[dos]

I used an entech 203.2 for a bit....breathed life into an (early) mission dad5 (an old player)...ever more so when (again) pete had breathed on it.

I had to inport the damn thing from the states (not an experince i would recommend....but thats another story), so the enttech may not be your best choice. There are many others.

They often come up on e bay.

I think you'll have the choice of over sampling or on oversampling (NOS), showing my ignorance here, I'm not the person to sdvise which. I think its six and two threes? Any on eput me right?

Now i'm lost! Can I use any dac with the rotel?

 

[DavidF]

Now i'm lost! Can I use any dac with the rotel?

yes

so long as you ahve a digital "out"

OS/NOS won't make any difference to compatabiltiy

 

[ADPully]

Yes any DAC will work with the rotel.

There is a Audio synthesis DAX DAC for £599 on hifi for sale. Its an older one but all AS DACs are well respected on ZG and elesewhere and very well made - My old DAX decade, now sold was very smooth sounding.


I wouldnt hesitate to recommend second hand AS kit at £599 much of the depreciation has occured and its reliable.

Andy

 

[Tenson]

Question: Does anybody have exp with the behringer modded dac? http://www.audiosmile.co.uk/src2496.htm

Why not try one out for yourself? The best thing to do id hear it and decide with your own ears. For the cost of postage each way I am happy to loan you one for a week. See if it improves on the Rotel, and if it does then great!

 

[dos]

Tenson - I've seen cheaper dac's around -i.e. the moodlab dac for approx £140. In your opinion would you say that the behringer is going to have better results?