Upgrades, Psu's Are They Worth It...

yes they do make a trmendous difference to the way that any unit can reproduce a more richer and detail sound, but some manufacturers charge astronomical prices for psu's, i can understand that for the likes of phono stages, headphone amps, dac's, yes they make a lot of difference, but i believe if you buy a well built integrated it would have either a very good power supply built in as well as an outboard one, i would like your views,
some upgrades work, some do not, everybody hears different there again if you bought the amp you most liked why bother,
nando with out prejudice.

 

What point are you trying to make Nando?

 

Buyer's remorse?

Yes, I think in some circumstances that a better PSU can improve the sound quality of a headphone amp, turntable, or DAC. I think two and three-box amplifiers/preamps with external PSUs are not always better than a single unit. It doesn't make it a rip-off, but it raises the question "are they necessary?".

One area where I think external PSU's work are with turntables. Every Nott table with the Wave Mechanic PS sounds better than the stock unit. Better pacing, tonality, and drama. Same deal for the Kuzma Stabi S which sounds even more dramatic.

 

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the point that i am trying to make "with due respect" is for and to upgrade a PSU the charges are very high for what little goes on cost's of parts, i am not against the progress of doing so, just where it makes a difference that justifies the price charged, i believe that more and more people are going DIY, also those who do that or go independant voyds manufacturers warranty,still we choose to leave it to our own devices, and take a chance for worst or better, a well known manufacturer charges more for their PSU'S than the units themselfs.
nando

 

Well, 'with due respect', you are still rambling around the actual point you are attempting to make. I can't help but feel you have a very specific manufacturer in mind, and a very specific criticism, buried in all the generalisation of "PSU's are they worth it"; if you have a criticism get on and make it.

I see you sell Hi-fi, in that case you should know yourself how much upgrading power supplies can make. However, I also note that you do not sell the products which I suspect your thinly veiled criticisms are aimed at - turn the record over please. Frankly, I feel it is poor form for retailers (or manufacturers) to criticise equipment they do not sell (or make) - perhaps this is why your initial post is so vague - have you been reading Hi-Fi+?

P.S. With all due respect,

doesn't make any sense at all.

Why not start a thread asking what people think of manufacturers who change their product range every five minutes? At least then you could discuss one of the accounts you hold.

 

I though Nando was doing the decent thing in order to prevent the 'Cartridge Height' thread going hopelessly off course (a bit late for that mind you). I decided to do the decent thing and ignore this thread and continue to derail one about cartridge height with my thoughts on TT PSUs

https://www.audio-forums.com/as-rediect/showthread.php?t=20911

Mind you, I could be wrong, no, not just wrong, very wrong....

Nando, did you start this to save the other thread? Are you just into good housekeeping and on-topic posting on Zerogain? Or are you just Naim-bashing? Come clean I say, for God's* sake, come clean,, Grrrrrrrr





* Or the spaghetti monster
https://www.audio-forums.com/as-rediect/showthread.php?t=20828

P.S. I don't wan't to get dragged into that whole religious hornet's nest.

 

Ooh, I've not read that thread recently, a thread entitled 'Cartridge Height' just sounds like 'death by dull'.

Edit: Having now read the above mentioned thread I conclude that my previous assumption was essentially correct.

 

You old cynic YNMOAN.

I personnally find the 'is it AC, is it DC?' debate fascinating, er as you will have seen.

Anyway, if you include TT PSU's in this discussion then I would venture that Yes Nando, there can indeed be considerable benefit to both subejective and measured performance. And in some cases they are very good VFM.

 

Well, as it happens I have very recently had the delight of comparing two turntable power supplies on my own deck. I was asked by Les W. at Avondale Audio is I would like to try his reborn TAPS and this I did, comparing it to my Armageddon (note: I do not use an LP12). Whilst both these supplies are transformer coupled units they go about their business in quite different ways.

If I may, I have copied my comments below:

First Impressions

A few weeks ago I was visiting Les at Avondale Audio (as I do from time to time) and he showed me a prototype of a forthcoming turntable power supply; this is to be called the TAPS (Turntable Auxiliary Power Supply). The purpose of this supply is to feed any AC 24 pole turntable motor and is his take on the problems that the Naim Armageddon and Linn Lingo (amongst others) seek to address. Well, after a bit of a chat Les asked me if I would like to borrow it and, if I wanted, post my findings; so I did borrow it and here are those findings.

The TAPS has a number of unique (in my experience) features. It is not a supply that regenerates the waveform in the way that supplies like the Lingo do. The TAPS is more like the Naim Armageddon although the actual application is quite different. I did ask Les if he would outline the circuit for me and this is what he told me:

There are six main stages, and these are:
1/ The mains enters the unit and enters a resistor buffer.
2/ It is then routed through the first transformer that steps the voltage down.
3/ The signal then goes through a resistor, capacitor network for wave shaping.
4/ Then on to a Common Mode Inductor.
5/ Another resistor, capacitor network.
6/ Finally, a transformer raises the voltage back up to 110 volts. However, this final voltage can be adjusted in 2 volt increments to reduce motor vibration and enhance the flywheel effect of the platter.

This final point is a key feature of the TAPS. On the production version you will be able to adjust, via a front mounted dial, the specific voltage fed to the motor. The advantages of this are twofold; not only is motor vibration reduced (and therefore noise likely to be fed back into the system) but the platters rotational mass is now much more clearly defined as the dominant source of rotational energy. The flywheel effect of the platter is able to dominate irregularities in the motor feed (rather like the Nottingham Analogue decks).

As mine was a preproduction version it did not have the adjustable output voltage but was preset at a minimum level just sufficient to maintain platter rotation. It is also worth mentioning that although my deck uses an AC 24 pole motor, like the Linn LP12, it is not a Linn. In day to day use I employ a Naim Armageddon and so the Taps was compared directly to this.

This was a most interesting comparison to make – whilst the supplies were quite different the type of difference was quite unlike those that you find with amplifiers, speakers or pretty much any other component. Because of the low output voltage of the (pre-production) TAPS is was necessary to spin the platter up to speed by hand but once 33.3rpm was achieved I never heard anything to suggest that the speed was anything less than 100% accurate or consistent. This was not an easy comparison to make (even less easy to write) as in many fundamental ways the two supplies were very similar, and yet, they were also quite audibly different.

Let’s look at the similarities first. Both supplies had a very similar overall presentation in that the apparent dynamic range was the same and top to bottom extension was also similar; neither supply gave greater bass or treble. Dynamic impact was also very similar and sharp transients (like sudden bass notes or guitar riffs) were equally well conveyed on both; I did wonder if the Armageddon, with its greater torque, would be superior in this regard but that did not seem to be the case. PRaT was of a similarly high standard on both units and bass lines were easy to follow on both (sometimes easier on the TAPS).

Now, let us consider the differences. There were two main differences; firstly, the Armageddon had the curious quality of making the music almost seem louder – not so much in a volume sense (volume levels were carefully maintained throughout the comparisons made), more as if one was sat slightly closer to the musicians. The TAPS, on the other hand, gave a slightly more distant, considered perspective. The second main difference was in terms of stereo portrayal. The TAPS gave an extremely tightly focussed presentation and placement of sounds and instruments across the sound stage was excellent, as was depth. In comparison the Armageddon seemed slightly more ‘vivid’ but at the same time instrument position was a little more smeared and less tightly focussed. A couple of times, with the TAPS I heard some very subtle movement of voices within the soundstage which just weren’t apparent with the Armageddon. Voices in particular sounded more compact on the TAPS than the slightly larger, and closer, quality imparted by the Armageddon; putting aside the manner of presentation, dynamic inflection seemed equally good on both.

In terms of motor noise there doesn’t seems to be much in it – perhaps the TAPS does give a quieter background but the difference is small. I should add that I spent a lot of effort to isolate vibration from the motor when I designed my deck and backgrounds are already very quiet indeed; the addition of magnetic lift to the main bearing helped significantly in this regard. LP12 users may well find the difference more pronounced.

There is no doubt, in my mind, that this is a very successful design. It is not a copy (in any way) of any existing product and offers a most welcome addition to the ranks of existing designs. The ability to adjust the output voltage to the motor is particularly interesting (and unique as far as I am aware) and I would certainly like to experiment with this. I will certainly be badgering Les to try a full production model when they become available. Anybody considering a power supply for their AC motor powered turntable should definitely consider the TAPS. I know that Les has yet to finalise the exact presentation of the unit but it is likely to be about the size of a Naim half width case (Armageddon, Nac72, Hi-Cap) and be black with a black anodised, brushed aluminium, front panel. A front mounted dial with LED indicators is planed to adjust, and indicate, the chosen output voltage to the motor. Price has not been finalised but like all Avondale designs I am sure it will be more than competitive.

Records used in the above comparisons:

Antony And The Johnsons ‘I Am A Bird Now’
David Bowie ‘Hunky Dory’
Dead Can Dance ‘Aion’
Dead Can Dance ‘Toward The Within’
Laura Marling ‘Alas I Cannot Swim’
Lou Reed ‘Berlin’
Talk Talk ‘The Colour Of Spring’

I did offer Les the chance to read the above before I posted it but he declined as he said he did not wish to influence my findings – can’t say fairer than that.

 

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yes it does,i have sold all kind of products and designed equipment for manufacturers, i will not mention names because if you are as clever as you sound "i belive" you should know a few of them , as far as my quote on what you have pointed out some itegrateds have the facility to double their psu as an add on for bi-amping,
regards ,
nando

 

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cleam? YES naim.
nando.

 

that is not the issue about who sells what, the question is of not what manufactureres do or decide to change their napies every 10 seconds, this thread is about a debate on psu's and opinions on peoples experience and the cost of the psu's . does the cost justifie the sound difference, it's not rocket science,
nando

 

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