vinyl distortion or (mis)tracking problem?

[Corky]

A question...
I have this afternoon sat down for a huge treat to myself having not had a day off since Christmas... I opened a brand new set of the John Coltrane Heavyweight Champion on vinyl (2nd edition, in original cellophane with the Rhino label with the number of this set in the edition on the outside. Got from reliable source in usa).

These are all stereo I think, so no mono distortion issues... but...
I'm getting regular noises - say three or four times in a side - that sound like mistracking. These are not especially intense tracks, they're not like a soprano at full throttle or full choir in anger getting hold of my little 1042 and causing a bit of mistracking; this is happening with anything - tenor sax, piano, sometimes just a silent space.
I've checked the cartridge visually, cleaned it and played some other stuff and no unusual problems.

Is there maybe something I need to do, like clean this discs or something? Or am I really looking at a worn out cartridge and this just happens to be the first thing to reveal it's dying? Or is this a problem on the master tapes? Or heaven forbid, a bad pressing?

Cartridge is about six years old. It does get more and more use as time goes by, particularly after recent upgrades to system, but it's not been heavily used so I was expecting a bit more life out of it.

Any ideas anyone?

Thanks

 

[peez]

could well be the stylus on the cart, they wear at an inconsistent rate depending on the condition of the vinyl played, correctness of alignment etc, anything from 500 to a few thousand hours so it may have had it.

 

[Corky]

could well be the stylus on the cart, they wear at an inconsistent rate depending on the condition of the vinyl played, correctness of alignment etc, anything from 500 to a few thousand hours so it may have had it.

Thanks peez
sigh, I feared that...:newbie:

this is the first time it's started to show - will I damage my vinyl with it or can I use it until I can replace??

 

[YNMOAN]

If it is mistracking you will damage your vinyl I'm afraid. A friend had something similar recently and a number of albums now have the permanent sound of mistracking on them – turned out he was tracking nearly a gram too light.

 

[Corky]

If it is mistracking you will damage your vinyl I'm afraid. A friend had something similar recently and a number of albums now have the permanent sound of mistracking on them ââ'¬â€œ turned out he was tracking nearly a gram too light.

:yikes: I hope I have spotted it early enough.

breathe, breathe, breathe

I really only opened that set yesterday and I did pay pretty big bucks for it compared with what I would have paid for the CD set :boughtMF:

Hope I haven't already done loads of damage to the other treasures on my shelf.

Maaan, this reminds me of the mine field of vinyl issues that encouraged me to invest in CD back in the 80s.

 

[sq225917]

I am that idiot friend, one play was enough for irreperable harm to take place.

 

[Corky]

Well, might be off to audition some cartridges next week
I have wondered whether I did the damage with an old record that arrived recently. First play it was a mess and I don't have a vinyl cleaner I played it three times... it was fine by the third time but looking back, I could have pushed my stylus over the edge with that RaT:
If I've wrecked the stuff I've been playing recently: that TWO 404 that was a mess, some 180 and 200 gramme goodies - Quadrophenia, Tommy, some Sonny Rollins, a nice SXL Rite of Spring... a really hard to find Jim Pugh. Man, If I've hurt that lot it's probably £300 plus and then there's the 2 discs I played from that expensive John Coltrane Atlantic set I played on Sunday when I noticed it.

I feel sick

 

[sq225917]

I know, i wrote off two Lou reed Transformer 200gms and one Fionn Regan double 10", gutted doesn't cover it.

 

[Corky]

I know, i wrote off two Lou reed Transformer 200gms and one Fionn Regan double 10", gutted doesn't cover it.

Ouch... I feel for you :-(

and me!

Still hoping I caught it early.

Having said that, it took 'quiet' music - if I can call Giant Steps 'quiet' to show it up and it could have been going on for a while.

And so expensive to put right...

 

[Corky]

Now cartridge assessment

So, my friendly dealer - Artisan in Stoke Poges - is lining up an audition for me after some discussion of my needs and preferences. I'm lucky in that he brought the ASTINtrew AT1000 and Dynavector P.75 over to my house and put them into my system here to allow me to audition them; so he knows what I have and what my preferred choices are.

We've narrowed it to their own Tutti, which he writes is a re-badged Benz Micro Glider H (and about half that price!) and a Dynavector 17D3

I decided against just bunging a new stylus in the 1042 as I only ever regarded that as a cheap-ish short-term thing and have often been dissatisfied with its lack of finesse though I do quite like its gusto sometimes

Any thoughts you have would be appreciated as I haven't auditioned kit for ages and ages and had the Goldring put on with the RB300 when I was reviving my Thorens about seven years ago (so this is the 2nd stylus on that cartridge)

 

[YNMOAN]

The Tutti looks interesting, but isn't it a high output MC and the 17D3 a low output - quite different really.

It's not all bad though - Simon gave me his knackered copy of Fionn Regan

Dodgy vinyl won't have damaged your stylus though Steve (shame the opposite can't be said).

I don't know (first hand) the cartridges you mention but I could tell you the 'perceived wisdom' view (which may well be total nonsense). 'They' do say that the 17D3 is all about exquisite detail and micro dynamic shading - perhaps at the expense of bass warmth and larger dynamic swings. The Glider is said to be a bit 'rounder' but perhaps lacks the inner detail and vibrancy of the Dynavector - have fun listening though and do tell us your 'first hand' experience.

 

[Corky]

The Tutti looks interesting, but isn't it a high output MC and the 17D3 a low output - quite different really.

You're right. I have tried to narrow the choice between cartridges that take an obviously different approach - that's mainly because I'm easily confused

If I knew what I wanted, I guess I'd be better placed but mostly, my system gets an upgrade phase and then I forget it for ages so don't honestly have any idea what I'm aiming at This dealer though, has been very helpful and genuine. When he brought the bits over a couple of months or so ago, he brought along a prototype phono stage that they were working on with a US designer and plugged it in at the end of our audition - very impressive and an indication of their progressive approach and genuine interest I thought.

My humble phono stage allows me to change the jump switches to accommodate the alternative outputs of quite a lot of cartridges. Also, the Dynavector to Dynavector will have some other things about it that the Tutti to Dynavector won't. Not sure what current amplification mode is - I'll need to google that

There is the possibility that he'll have a Soundsmith from the US too - this one a MM, well, he/they describes it as moving iron

It's not all bad though - Simon gave me his knackered copy of Fionn Regan

Them's the kind of friends we need

Dodgy vinyl won't have damaged your stylus though Steve (shame the opposite can't be said).

Ah, then we might have narrowed the field. I had a heart-in-mouth-moment during a late Valentine Supper with friends. My partner :SWMBO: had, well, was, um, well :beer: :boogie:...were involved and a little heavy handedness was heard in the music room when she decided the neighbours needed a Smiths education, followed by a Housemartins tutorial

I have used it since then though and didn't hear anything obvious. Slow deterioration is difficult isn't it? Hard to know when the 'damage' might have begun - if it's been done! I'm still saying my prayers :baby:

 

[Baudrillard]

If it is mistracking you will damage your vinyl I'm afraid. A friend had something similar recently and a number of albums now have the permanent sound of mistracking on them ââ'¬â€œ turned out he was tracking nearly a gram too light.

What about end of side distortion? Is it possible for a cartridge to be relatively unworn, to track ok but also display end of side distortion? And will that permanently mark the vinyl, too?

 

[kt66]

I know, i wrote off two Lou reed Transformer 200gms and one Fionn Regan double 10", gutted doesn't cover it.

Transformer on 200gm? what was the label?

to the o/p ? you're sure it's not just a bad pressing? it does happen.

 

[Corky]

Transformer on 200gm? what was the label?

to the o/p ? you're sure it's not just a bad pressing? it does happen.

Hi kt66, not sure if this is the one he meant, but it is available for £15.00 here:
http://eil.com/shop/moreinfo.asp?catalogid=417523


PS, I love that eil site

 

[Corky]

What about end of side distortion? Is it possible for a cartridge to be relatively unworn, to track ok but also display end of side distortion? And will that permanently mark the vinyl, too?

OK, so, from the above it must be obvious I know nuffin. So ignore everything I say

But... the mistracking I heard on Sunday was very different from the feeling I get when my cartridge just can't quite resolve everything that's going on and starts to distort. With my modest setup, end of side mistracking is nowhere near as marked as on older experiences with turntables I've had and on some discs, not obviously audible to my ears. What I got on Sunday was more like a distant grating noise, not intense but obviously not right and nothing to do with the music really - kind of separate. Hence me turning it all off once I'd heard it on a second disc despite that nothing odd seemed to be happening in another more familiar recording (that was Wagner and wasn't so 'quiet' so maybe not the right alternate to check out).
In some ways, I guess I'm erring on the side of caution but the cost of a cartridge is soon swamped by the cost of wrecked and sometimes hard to find vinyl...

 

[domfjbrown]

Long time no post...

...are you sure it's not just mould release agent or similar on the (brand new) vinyl? I've had a few records that have sounded crap from new, and a bung through my el cheapo Disco Antistat sorted almost all of the problems...

...except for my expensive copy of Moon Safari which crackles, badly. Grrrr.

 

[Corky]

Long time no post...

...are you sure it's not just mould release agent or similar on the (brand new) vinyl?

To be honest, no I'm not. But as I'm not really familiar with what that is like I don't know what I'm looking for. As you say, these were brand spanking new and in part that was the reason for my question in the first place. I know what distortion sounds like only too well but I'm not all that sure what 'mistracking' sounds like.

I'm taking the Coltrane set with me to the dealer on Monday, so we'll see if his set has the same noises going on.

I've had a few records that have sounded crap from new, and a bung through my el cheapo Disco Antistat sorted almost all of the problems...

Wassat? Sorry - I've already owned up to ignorance on many fronts...

...except for my expensive copy of Moon Safari which crackles, badly. Grrrr.

That's a shame

 

[YNMOAN]

That's the copy of Transformer Steve - if you are a Lou Reed fan get it (I have) it's just like the original but more dynamic, like a virgin copy; also get Berlin on 200g (also Sony) which is absolutely superb and one of my all time fav records.

In my experience end of side distortion is more subtle than mistracking and seems to affect the vinyl in a much less 'violent' way. Years ago I 'experimented' (hope my mother isn't reading this) with a Decca London Gold which was the most vivid and dynamic thing I've ever heard - but it completely stuffed a Bauhaus album from mistracking (just once).

When Si made the (very easy to do) tracking weight mistake he brought the albums straight round to my house - the tracks he had played (brand new record - played just the once) clearly had mistracking type distortion on them and the others did not - my own identical pressings sounded fine.

That crackling sound you mention Dom, I know what you mean but it isn't tracking distortion just embedded crap or something.

 

[Corky]

That's the copy of Transformer Steve - if you are a Lou Reed fan get it (I have) it's just like the original but more dynamic, like a virgin copy; also get Berlin on 200g (also Sony) which is absolutely superb and one of my all time fav records.

I am - at least I am at that stage of his career - true classic. I can't keep buying vinyl though... it's getting ridiculous! Have to ration meself I have three or more on order too - a Coltrane disc with Curtis Fuller on it, a Charlie Mingus, looking for Court of the Crimson King, can't go to those lovely sites with the old Deccas and EMIs on them - I'd empty my bank account!

In my experience end of side distortion is more subtle than mistracking and seems to affect the vinyl in a much less 'violent' way. Years ago I 'experimented' (hope my mother isn't reading this) with a Decca London Gold which was the most vivid and dynamic thing I've ever heard - but it completely stuffed a Bauhaus album from mistracking (just once).

That's one of the things that scares me about vinyl - so easy to do so much harm. It hardly seems fair really

When Si made the (very easy to do) tracking weight mistake he brought the albums straight round to my house - the tracks he had played (brand new record - played just the once) clearly had mistracking type distortion on them and the others did not - my own identical pressings sounded fine.

Running it light wouldn't even have registered on my radar as an issue for anything other than making the cartridge sound poor. Just goes to show.

Maybe I do like CDs after all :cry:

That crackling sound you mention Dom, I know what you mean but it isn't tracking distortion just embedded crap or something.