What brand of caps?

Discussion in 'DIY Discussion' started by la toilette, Jun 13, 2007.

  1. la toilette

    la toilette Downright stupid

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    Not strictly DIY this as it's not me that would do it, but it wouldn't be done 'professionally'.......

    I'm looking into having the original capacitors in the crossovers in my Tannoy monitor golds updated, as this seems to be an accepted way of improving their performance (if not their value). Now I don't know a thing about all this kind of stuff but someone via the Tannoy forum on yahoo has agreed to do the work for a nominal fee of £30 so in theory I don't need to know :) .

    But, in the general forum discussion on this subject has indicated that some brands are better than others (no suprise there I guess) but what I want to know is whether it's worth spending out the extra to get significantly improved results.
    I'm not going to go mad and buy super expensive exotica, mainly because I can't afford it :)mad: ), but would be interested to hear any strong opinions. Anyway the number one choice at the moment (on bang for bucks) is the Wilmslow audio supercaps that I understand are rebadged solens?

    Any thoughts?
     
    la toilette, Jun 13, 2007
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  2. la toilette

    Tenson Moderator

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    IME the brand/label on the outside makes a pretty small difference compared to the material used in the capacitor (that has measurable differences in linearity).

    I use generic radial polypropylene where possible (not always for bigger values) and polyester where not. Both are significantly better than electrolytic. Go to RS and look through the Radial Polypropylene and polyester capacitors sections, you will be suprised by the price when there is no audiophile label on it. Paper in Oil is better than both, but only by a very narrow margin and are hard to obtain.

    Oh, also get as tight a tolerance as possible. I'd choose a 5% polyester over a 10% polyprop.
     
    Tenson, Jun 13, 2007
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  3. la toilette

    la toilette Downright stupid

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    That's exactly the kind of reply that I was hoping to get, as I got a few 'I used brand x and they were great' comments on the other forum but not much in the way of general guidance or rules of thumb. Thanks Tenson!

    Now all I need to do is translate the circuit diagram to work out what values I need....!

    (ahem, it's here if you fancy err, browsing it.....:eek: )
    http://www.hilberink.nl/codehans/tannoy37.htm
     
    la toilette, Jun 13, 2007
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  4. la toilette

    Dev Moderator

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    One of my favourite sites LT.
     
    Dev, Jun 13, 2007
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  5. la toilette

    nando nando

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    Dev Try Black Gates,
     
    nando, Jun 13, 2007
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  6. la toilette

    Tenson Moderator

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    Per speaker you need:

    Tweeter-
    1x 6.8uF RS Stock no. 497-4191 or RS Stock no. 824-193

    1x 1.5uF RS Stock no. 190-8321 or RS Stock no. 824-165

    1x 3.3uF RS Stock no. 190-8343 or RS Stock no. 824-171

    Woofer-
    1x 16uF (made from 2x 8.2uF) RS Stock no. 497-4208 or (2x 6.8uF + 1x 2.2uF) RS Stock no. 191-2932 & RS Stock no. 824-244

    All the first options are polypropylene and are not as tight tolerance as the second options which are polyester. But polyester, while cheaper per cap and a tighter tolerance is often only available in packs of 5. The polypropylene you can buy individually. I think I would go for the polyester. You could sell the left over caps to people who want to re-cap.
     
    Tenson, Jun 13, 2007
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  7. la toilette

    felix part-time Horta

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    I'd second Tenson on this, except maybe the paper-in-oil bit, but fortuitously the Wilmslow stuff is good - and at sensible prices, too! They should be able to provide film parts for all the values in the schematic linked. No-brainer, I think...
     
    felix, Jun 13, 2007
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  8. la toilette

    la toilette Downright stupid

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    You guys are GREAT! Thanks for listing the cap values Tenson, reduces the chance of me buying the wrong ones quite significantly. I'll check out RS as well and compare with the Wilmslow options/prices and go from there.

    Thanks again, it's nice to have good clear informed advice :) I'll let you know what difference it makes when it's all done.

    EDIT: Actually I have to admit that having compared the list of values with the schematic I now feel a bit silly for not having been able to work out what shape represented what - it wouldn't have taken too much investigation. I just look at diagrams like that and go blank! I blame it all on my physics teacher at school, the experience must have traumatised me, ha ha.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 13, 2007
    la toilette, Jun 13, 2007
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  9. la toilette

    larkrise Sheepdogs prefer red wine

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    With respect, No Nando no - big myth, never understood why people use them!! Had a blackgate amp and same amp non blackgate - £1000 difference (these were audio synthesis desire decades) and guess what non blackgate sounded much better and not alone with this experience.
     
    larkrise, Jun 13, 2007
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  10. la toilette

    nando nando

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    respect to your views, but i had other experiance on how to use them, on various circuits and devices, i know that they are expeensive but they do need a very good conducter desined circuit,and also heat tolerance, but i just wanted to put my oppinion on the basis of practice, regards nando.
     
    nando, Jun 13, 2007
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  11. la toilette

    Tenson Moderator

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    How long do you think they take to burn in Nando? My experiance of the generic polyester types is only take a couple of days.
     
    Tenson, Jun 13, 2007
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  12. la toilette

    larkrise Sheepdogs prefer red wine

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    Simon - re Blackgates I have heard that they take an eternity - but as you know i am not very technical so take with a spoon of salt
     
    larkrise, Jun 14, 2007
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  13. la toilette

    I-S Good Evening.... Infidel

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    I would not regard black gates as being at all suitable for speaker crossovers in any case.

    Please remember this about black gates: They're great for electrolytics. That does not change the fact that electrolytic capacitors are very poor compared to most other types in most respects, bar one - density. You can fit far more capacitance in far less space with electrolytics, and where performance isn't critical (eg power supply reservoirs) they're perfectly good - their large values overcome their poor performance. However, as simon rightly says, polyester and polypropylene are far better choices where you can use them.
     
    I-S, Jun 14, 2007
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  14. la toilette

    bottleneck talks a load of rubbish

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    A few comments.

    Having spoken to many people about Black Gates, they are commonly used in power supplies, but I wouldn't personally (based on the experiences of more knowledgeable people) use them in the signal path.

    I was advised against using paper-in-oil by a speaker manufacturer. Not in regard of sound, but rather that they have a higher failure rate, and therefore you may suffer from blown drive units if you're very unlucky. With vintage drive units, I wouldn't personally go there (and didn't).

    In terms of choosing a cap's measurements - I'd reccomend doing what I did - getting the existing caps measured, and going for exactly the same thing. I can't see how you can go wrong with a like-for-like replacement, providing you have the originals in there.. unless you get the original schematic of the crossover, and then you can use that.

    Finally, I chose 'm-caps', and was very pleasantly suprised by them. I tried a couple of variants and was pleasantly suprised.

    If your budget is really really tight, try Solens. Proac use them (amongst others), and they sound pretty good to me.

    NB - this is where I shop. Nick at hificollective is a good bloke.
    http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/capacitors.html
     
    bottleneck, Jun 14, 2007
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  15. la toilette

    spev

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    Having tinkered inside my rotel cdp, the power supply lines are littered with blackgates, but get anywhere near the signal path and good old panasonic fc caps are being used... Now removed and replaced with polyprops, but I suppose it says something about using blackgates in the signal path.
     
    spev, Jun 14, 2007
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  16. la toilette

    harrygrey382

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    Yes I've seen your posts on the Tannoy forum Toilette, and as I've just finished new cab's for my 15s, I think I might do a recap. And I'll try those one's Simon's suggested I reckon. Have you decided to leave the roll-off switches in place?
     
    harrygrey382, Jun 14, 2007
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  17. la toilette

    la toilette Downright stupid

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    No I think I'll take them out, I did think about keeping them but tbh I've always had them in the level positions (roll off level and energy -1) with all the old pairs of Tannoys I've had, so it seems pointless keeping them in really - apart from having a cutout in the rear of my cabinets for them to sit, which I'll have to plug!
     
    la toilette, Jun 14, 2007
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  18. la toilette

    nando nando

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    hi tenson, 2 to 3 days to reach almost max. regards nando.
     
    nando, Jun 14, 2007
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  19. la toilette

    la toilette Downright stupid

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    Let's have a peek then!
     
    la toilette, Jun 14, 2007
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  20. la toilette

    nando nando

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    gentlemen, i rest my case, regards nando.
     
    nando, Jun 14, 2007
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