What makes a good hi-fi Dealer.

[lbr]

I don't dispute that a shop is a profit making organistion but I would hope the seller's first concern is that he is offering vfm.....and the stuff he is suggesting is going to reward the buyer over a period of time.

And getting back on topic for a moment )) there is a maybe the core of what makes a good hi-fi dealer

 

[dos]

Dare I suggest - Somebody who likes music over and above 'hi-fi'

 

[Papa Lazarou]

Dare I suggest - Somebody who likes music over and above 'hi-fi'

Spot on.

There aren't many like that about IME.

Some of them go out of their way to make you feel you need silly little tweaks, mains and isolation products that in the real world offer little or no benefit. If the kit is fundamentally flawed in the first place, or just doesn't offer the sound you really want, no amount of foo is gonna give the right sound.

 

[DavidF]

Spot on.

There aren't many like that about IME.

Some of them go out of their way to make you feel you need silly little tweaks, mains and isolation products that in the real world offer little or no benefit.

It had to come....



actually in some systems it offer enormous benefits

My system has benefited vastly from isolation management.

If the kit is fundamentally flawed in the first place, or just doesn't offer the sound you really want, no amount of foo is gonna give the right sound.

Its not " foo" mate, its a well respected subject





To get an idea google vibration management and lab equipment.....do those guys waste time?


I agree really heavily built kit might benefit a litle less......but most stuff shows a lot of sonic improvement.

 

[Markus S]

This assumes that distributors don't exist in the US doesn't it? If that is the case, and I'm not sure it is, then it begs the question why do we need them in the EU? Surely the consumer is just picking up the tab for a needlessly inefficient supply chain. I would hazard a guess that distributors perform a valuable role in both the EU and US.

In any case, without having sales figures for specific brands to hand I'm not convinced by the volume discount argument. The target market is considerably larger in the EU (c.500m people) than the whole of the US (c.300m), let alone a specific city (New York, 20m)

Of course the U.S. has distributors, but only for non-U.S. stuff (with a very few exceptions for minuscule U.S. companies where the "manufacturer" can't answer the phone during daytime because he's busy with his real job). Krell, Audio Research, Wilson, BelCanto, any company of any real importance self-distributes. It's important to them to have their ear t the ground, i.e. have direct contact with their dealers.

Does Arcam have a distributor in the UK? No. Do they have one in France, Germany and the U.S.? Yes.

Does Accuphase have a distributor in Japan? No. Do they have one in other countries? Yes.

It's just the way this business works, no U.S. company will be willing to operate in a country where they do not know the local law and regulations and don't know who is a reliable dealer and who isn't. From the manufacturer's point of view, a distributor performs a worthwhile function.

Regarding sales volume, published figures aren't available, but trust me on this.

 

[D Louth 77]

Hi Guys and Gals

Interesting debate so far,but why bring pet-hates into this(Isolation and accessories) . Any Good to Excellent dealer should never put the cart before the horse,I.e offer tweaks before the products . I can't imagine nor have i come across anyone who does that(they may exist if so spill the beans,who?).
The fundamentals should be got right first and then tweaks and accessories applied to raise performance(remember manufacturers don't include ,many or any of these down to cost(make product to dear)or may not be compatible in your system context.However they should be able to relate their findings ,in relation to cables,isolation etc as should the dealer). David F is right about isolation,in the real world(not hi-fi) there are many places where isolation is used,such as suspension in cars,protecting buildings in earth quake zones,medical kit(this is where RDC was developed) and many more applications. If you can't hear the difference this makes ,thats okay but don't attack the rest of us who can or dealers who recognize its importance.

At the end of the day being in business,what ever that maybe is about making a living. Fairly and honestly would and should be the basis for that.

Markus Sauer points are all excellent and 100% correct, many of the people who criticize pricing don't understand the fundamental costs in running a distribution network and giving you and your dealers a margin. When you break down the costs ,even the dollar to pound thing does not allow massive profits and for the distributor sometimes not really enough,but he/she must allow a reasonable profit for the dealer to want to do the product(as they too have costs). American manufactures have no export policy,for the most part in the Audio industry,(Bose being an exception they have european manufacturing.But is it HI-FI,No). However despite the population demographics the actual percentage of those into/or interested in quality audio is very small.

Can a Dealer/distributor who sells a product only via his own shop be cheaper,Yes. Should he/she do that,up to them. This type of operation has less overheads as he/she is not having to build in a dealer net work margin to the retail price.

dos makes a good point ,a love of music is an important factor as it helps to inform how to build a system to suit the type of music the potential hi-fi owner likes. But this type of person may want to be involved in the music industry/retailing music and not the means to play it. Doing both to me would be a good start,but increasingly non physical media is the way many want to use music.

Regards D Louth

 

[DavidF]

there are many places where isolation is used,such as suspension in cars,protecting buildings in earth quake zones,medical kit(this is where RDC was developed) and many more applications. If you can't hear the difference this makes ,thats okay but don't attack the rest of us who can or dealers who recognize its importance.

Thank you very much.


D.

 

[DavidF]

BTW I was making the point that dealers shouild be able to offer advice on several subjects knowlegably.....speaker set up not the least of which ime.

Getting the speakers (precisely) level etc etc made a BIG difference to my kit.

Well written post D Louth.

 

[D Louth 77]

Thank you David F

Regards D Louth

 

[mtbguy68]

I wholeheartedly agree with Bottleneck's list.

The first one is quite important to me but I have yet found a dealer in London who would be willing to lend me some speakers even at over £2500 retail to try out at home.

I was hoping that being posted in London for work will allow that luxury which is not available at all in Oz.

Cheers
Al

 

[Purite Audio]

That I find astonishing, which speakers would you like to hear? Keith.

 

[hifi addict]

I'll loan you my van Keith so you can take a pair of Alpha's around.

 

[Purite Audio]

I was just about to suggest that you are more than happy at a moments notice to demonstrate anything anywhere any time.
Like the old Martini ad!

 

[lbr]

Krell, Audio Research, Wilson, BelCanto, any company of any real importance self-distributes.

That's a fair point, so I guess with major US brands there is some additional cost of adding a distributor to the chain, less of course the costs of self-distribution. I can see that genuinely adding to the prices in the EU, but not to the extent seen in practice. I continue to fear that there is a good deal of profiteering on the back of the weak dollar.

no U.S. company will be willing to operate in a country where they do not know the local law and regulations and don't know who is a reliable dealer and who isn't. From the manufacturer's point of view, a distributor performs a worthwhile function.

Of course, as I said above, I believe that distributors perform a valuable role.

why bring pet-hates into this(Isolation and accessories)

I don't necessarily agree with the dissenting voice on isolation and accessories, but it's a fair answer to the question posed - if you believe such things are BS, then a good hi-fi dealer would be one who avoids BSing you (in fact, that's true whatever your position on isolation etc).

many of the people who criticize pricing don't understand the fundamental costs in running a distribution network

and many of the people who don't criticize pricing don't understand the fundamental costs in running a distribution network

 

[DavidF]

I don't necessarily agree with the dissenting voice on isolation and accessories, but it's a fair answer to the question posed - if you believe such things are BS, then a good hi-fi dealer would be one who avoids BSing you (in fact, that's true whatever your position on isolation etc).

What should a dealer advise on the subject of isolation ( and cables if it comes to that)?

maybe that shouild be another thread......

 

[lbr]

What should a dealer advise on the subject of isolation ( and cables if it comes to that)?

maybe that shouild be another thread......

Yes maybe! For me, a dealer should advise on isolation, cables etc etc that he believes would be a worthwhile improvement over the same I already have in my system, taking into account the main elements of my system, my preferences, etc.

I guess the point I was trying to make, a little clumsily, is that some people quite validly (in the sense that no-one is right or wrong here, we've all got an opinion somewhere along a continuum of views on the subject) hold the view that such advice would be simply be evidence of a BS merchant stood before them.

I would like a dealer to provide appropriate advice on these things in line with the parameters above. Someone else would like a dealer to never even utter a breath on the subject. At least on this topic, there is no single behaviour which typifies the perfect dealer for everyone.

Good-dealerness is in the eye of the beholder perhaps?

 

[bottleneck]

That's a fair point, so I guess with major US brands there is some additional cost of adding a distributor to the chain, less of course the costs of self-distribution. I can see that genuinely adding to the prices in the EU, but not to the extent seen in practice. I continue to fear that there is a good deal of profiteering on the back of the weak dollar.

I still remain unconvinced.

Let's take the Living Voice Avatar - an almost exact case in reverse with a US distributor distributing a British built product, on small scale -



" At $7995 in the USA and around £4500 in the UK, the Living Voice Avatar OBX is a formidably good loudspeaker in a very manageably sized box, and must literally be heard correctly to be believed "


????

 

[Markus S]

That's a fair point, so I guess with major US brands there is some additional cost of adding a distributor to the chain, less of course the costs of self-distribution.

In theory, I agree. Manufacturers should know what part of their costs is nanufacture and what part distribution, and adjust their export pice accordingly as their distributors will have their own distribution costs.

Unfortunately, in practice, the export price is generally the same as the dealer price in the home market. In theory, there will be a modest discount of 5-10%, but a good dealer will get the same discount.

 

[Markus S]

" At $7995 in the USA and around £4500 in the UK, the Living Voice Avatar OBX is a formidably good loudspeaker in a very manageably sized box, and must literally be heard correctly to be believed "


????

The cynic in me thinks that LV artificially inflate the price in their home market, to invite just such comparisons from a US buyer. In practice, the British customer will then get a good discount ("darling, you won't believe how high a discount I managed that dealer to hammer down to") which makes the pricing more logical. And from what I see on the forums, most Avatars seem to be sold as ex-dem, cosmetic seconds etc. at 50-70% the official price.

 

[bottleneck]

Hi Markus

I think your previous point (before LV discount point) is probably very accurate - I can well imagine changing dealer margins/manufacturer margin/distributor margin to maintain a fair export price.

Perhaps blaming the dealer is unfair here - the ''chain'' if you like has let the end-user down when you pay 100% extra for an exported product.

It doesnt benefit anyone actually, because it just encourages grey imports.