When you're spending over £1 million on a violin...

[7_V]

I've often felt that there are similarities between speaker design and building musical instruments so I was particularly struck when I read this:

In practice it is extremely difficult to distinguish between a particularly fine Stradivarius instrument and an indifferent modern copy on the basis of the measured response alone. The ear is a supreme detection device and the brain is a far more sophisticated analyser of complex sounds than any system yet developed to assess musical quality.

http://physicsweb.org/articles/world/13/4/8

Of course this has no relevance for the hi-fi community whatsoever but it's interesting that a professional violinist can pay upwards of £100k just for a violin bow (ffs) and plenty of people seem to think that you should be able to hear the difference on a couple of hundred pounds worth of speakers.

It's good to share.

Regards
Steve

 

[KUB3]

There's certainly a cut off point early on, in the grand scheme of things. I suspect the major one lies at the 3k per * component bracket. Above this level it get's pretty close to hair splitting.


* Obviously I mean class leading component at that price point. Not some nova speakers is a puke inducing vinyl coffin.

 

[oedipus]

I've often felt that there are similarities between speaker design and building musical instruments so I was particularly struck when I read this:

You are joking surely? You don't actually think a speaker cabinet should vibrate do you?

In practice it is extremely difficult to distinguish between a particularly fine Stradivarius instrument and an indifferent modern copy on the basis of the measured response alone. The ear is a supreme detection device and the brain is a far more sophisticated analyser of complex sounds than any system yet developed to assess musical quality.

Note, you are inferring that the ear can tell the difference, and it isn't an explicit claim in the article. Who's to say that these great violinist aren't falling into the same trap as the audiophiles and eyeballing the Stradivarius.

Moreover, I expect that the great violinists are equally vain about their toys - however, it is expected by their paying audience that they will play a top notch violin at a concert, so at least they have a decent excuse (cf. the audiophile whose equipment has an audience of one.. [please make up your own jokes about masterbation]).

http://physicsweb.org/articles/world/13/4/8

Of course this has no relevance for the hi-fi community whatsoever

Oh, I don't know: non peer reviewed science, generating claptrap about what is audible without proper evidence. It's exactly like the hifi community.

but it's interesting that a professional violinist can pay upwards of £100k just for a violin bow (ffs) and plenty of people seem to think that you should be able to hear the difference on a couple of hundred pounds worth of speakers.

Or the insanity that a 20K CD player frontend for a 200 pound pair of speakers is a better approximation to a Stradivarius

 

[TonyL]

You are joking surely? You don't actually think a speaker cabinet should vibrate do you?

Harbeth do, and they make some of the least coloured speakers on the planet. The BBC did huge amounts of research on thin wall cabinet design. I've got a pair of C7s and you can play the cabinets like a pair of congas, yet because the vibration is very low Q and very carefully designed it stays out of the way. Everything vibrates, the only choice open to the designer is where.

Tony.

 

[lordsummit]

Moreover, I expect that the great violinists are equally vain about their toys - however, it is expected by their paying audience that they will play a top notch violin at a concert, so at least they have a decent excuse (cf. the audiophile whose equipment has an audience of one.. [please make up your own jokes about masterbation]).

When I was at college I was loaned for a short while the most beautiful of instruments a Testore viola then another by Benjamin Banks. That one wasn't quite as good, but still wonderful. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that there is something wonderful about these old instruments, whether it's down to the varnish, the aging process, or woodworm they are undoubtably different.

 

[7_V]

You are joking surely? You don't actually think a speaker cabinet should vibrate do you?

I said that I felt there are similarities between speaker design and building musical instruments. I didn't mention cabinet vibration.

However, now that you mention it, cabinet vibration is not such a clear-cut issue. Real musical sounds are a mixture of coherent and non-coherent waveforms. Moving coil loudspeakers mostly generate coherent waveforms while cabinet vibration is non-coherent. They fill a room differently.

I personally do not design for vibrating cabinets; I think it's too hit or miss. However, I certainly agree with TonyL's comments. Many older designs where the cabinets vibrated sound very good in practice. The approach that I would favour is to combine a non-vibrating enclosure with a controlled vibrating panel, as for example in the 'Layered Sound' approach that I've advocated before on this forum.

Note, you are inferring that the ear can tell the difference, and it isn't an explicit claim in the article. Who's to say that these great violinist aren't falling into the same trap as the audiophiles and eyeballing the Stradivarius.

I didn't infer anything. That whole paragraph was an exact quote from the article - not 'great violinists' but physicists.

... or were you referring to my last paragraph? In which case I have to ask you if you think that many musicians would get involved with £1m violins if they couldn't hear the difference. I would have thought they'd age up a new, cheapy violin and pocket the difference.

Regards
Steve

 

[michaelab]

Steve, most violinists can't afford a £1m violin but many of them play an instrument that is 'loaned' to them by a rich collector/benefactor. It doesn't cost them (the violinist) anything so there's nothing to gain by playing a new cheapy.

 

[oedipus]

yet because the vibration is very low Q and very carefully designed it stays out of the way.

Then it is not vibrating like a musical instument... (from the original post:
similarities between speaker design and building musical instruments)

 

[alanbeeb]

But the people buying the £1m violins aren't probably buying it for the sound alone, but because its probably a living piece of history that has been played by legendary players in the past and custodianship of it is an honour and a privilege.

I don't think there's really any comparison to be made with buying hifi.

 

[Anex]

When I was at college I was loaned for a short while the most beautiful of instruments a Testore viola then another by Benjamin Banks. That one wasn't quite as good, but still wonderful. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that there is something wonderful about these old instruments, whether it's down to the varnish, the aging process, or woodworm they are undoubtably different.

I watched an interesting programme in one of my instrument design lectures at uni about Strad's and people trying to recreate the sound. Turned out he wasn't the violion design genius he was cracked up to be, it was largely luck- the wood is significant because they stored the logs in the sea (I forget where he lived) and just pulled them out when they needed them- the salt and water were both factors in the final sound and the varnish was made from whatever they had locally, I think they used crushed amber mixed with something or other else local. They analysed it in a lab and recreated it, made a new violin to the same specs and the expert violinist was impressed. He wasn't happy with the other copies he listened to but said there was very little difference between this copy and the real thing. As the real thing had plenty of years to mature they reckoned the new one would probably be more or less identical given time.

 

[oedipus]

I said that I felt there are similarities between speaker design and building musical instruments. I didn't mention cabinet vibration.

And I am picking at your hypothesis - starting with cabinet vibration

I didn't infer anything. That whole paragraph was an exact quote from the article - not 'great violinists' but physicists.

OK then, what was the point you were making? (including the following text up to and including the ???) ...

... or were you referring to my last paragraph? In which case I have to ask you if you think that many musicians would get involved with £1m violins if they couldn't hear the difference. I would have thought they'd age up a new, cheapy violin and pocket the difference.

Vanity; it's expected of them (for performance); it's nice to own expensive toys... etc - in short there are reasons beyond the "audible difference" for owning these things (and hifi).

 

[TonyL]

Then it is not vibrating like a musical instument... (from the original post:
similarities between speaker design and building musical instruments)

I'd argue that it was. Everything vibrates, and all speaker cabinets make noise. The choice open to the designer is to decide how and where the box vibrates and how the inevitable energy created is stored and released - a similar discipline to an instrument builder, though obviously a different end goal.

The BBC way is to get the box resonance as low frequency and low Q as possible and to decouple the front baffle and rear panel (both are screwed on) to further reduce and release energy. This flies in the face of conventional trends for heavy ââ'¬Å"rigidââ'¬Â boxes (inverted commas as nothing is rigid, it just moves the resonance upwards). Personally I think many high mass ââ'¬Å"rigidââ'¬Â box designs are seriously flawed, I'm convinced they hold on to energy rather than release it and this is why so few current speakers can equal even a 1960s BC1 in the mid band, let alone something like a Compact 7.

Tony.

 

[oedipus]

I'd argue that it was. Everything vibrates, and all speaker cabinets make noise. The choice open to the designer is to decide how and where the box vibrates and how the inevitable energy created is stored and released - a similar discipline to an instrument builder, though obviously a different end goal.

The BBC way is to get the box resonance as low frequency and low Q as possible and to decouple the front baffle and rear panel (both are screwed on) to further reduce and release energy. This flies in the face of conventional trends for heavy ââ'¬Å"rigidââ'¬Â boxes (inverted commas as nothing is rigid, it just moves the resonance upwards). Personally I think many high mass ââ'¬Å"rigidââ'¬Â box designs are seriously flawed, I'm convinced they hold on to energy rather than release it

Have a look at the Stereophile accelerometer plots for the Harbeth HL-P3 and compare that with a high mass B&W 802D...

and this is why so few current speakers can equal even a 1960s BC1 in the mid band, let alone something like a Compact 7.

I expect you like the "BBC dip"...

 

[Stereo Mic]

I expect you like the "BBC dip"...

Unless you are a mascocist, you will be employing something not too dissimilar with the Tact.

You must be very bored today Oedipus.

 

[7_V]

You must be very bored today Oedipus.

That doesn't justify inflicting the same on the rest of us.

 

[jtc]

it's interesting that a professional violinist can pay upwards of £100k just for a violin bow (ffs)

I've yet to meet an orchestral instrumentalist who could afford anything near to that amount. I mean, seriously, that's daft money by any standards, and you'd have to be a seriously successful artist (i.e. selling records, etc.) to have that kinda pocket change to fritter on a bow... surely?

I certainly know that in the realms of pro musicians (mainly rock and pop, some jazz) most would baulk at actually spending more than £5k on any one item, as it's got to justify its cost and unless you're at the top of the tree, as a pro musician you're living a fairly frugal lifestyle anyway (by necessity)...

 

[7_V]

As michaelab said, most violinists have their expensive violins lent to them by sponsors or patrons but have them they certainly do. I have read and heard plenty of theories as to why Stradivarius violins sound better but, before yesterday, I'd never heard anyone try to claim or imply that they probably don't sound any different. FFS we're talking about violins, not hi-fi mains cables. Try Googing "sound violin stradivarius" and see how many people are discussing whether a Strad sounds different.

Sometimes having a discussion on a forum is about as much fun as sticking pins through your eyeballs. I started this thread because I thought people might find it interesting, not for an argument. Oh well.

Getting back to fun (although I await any responses with trepidation) I heard a well known cellist tell this story on Radio 4...

Classical musicians tend to travel all over the world with their orchestras and they generally fly. As cellos tend to be quite valuable their owners don't put them with the luggage but take them on the aeroplane with them. This means they have to book an extra seat.

The airline booking clerk has a set of questions that they always ask, such as Name? (A Cello) and Age? (Hmmm, 150 years old). The clerk then books the ticket. Apparently, one cellist had a new instrument so gave 1 year as its age. The cello travelled free.

True story.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Joe]

Getting back to fun (although I await any responses with trepidation) I heard a well known cellist tell this story on Radio 4...

Classical musicians tend to travel all over the world with their orchestras and they generally fly. As cellos tend to be quite valuable their owners don't put them with the luggage but take them on the aeroplane with them. This means they have to book an extra seat.

The airline booking clerk has a set of questions that they always ask, such as Name? (A Cello) and Age? (Hmmm, 150 years old). The clerk then books the ticket. Apparently, one cellist had a new instrument so gave 1 year as its age. The cello travelled free.

I like the story of the radio 'personality' Gibert Harding, who was applying for a visa to visit the US. One of the questions on the form was 'do you intend to plot the violent overthrow of the US Government?' to which Harding responded 'sole purpose of visit'.

He got the visa. These days he'd have ended up in Belmarsh Prison!

 

[domfjbrown]

Steve, most violinists can't afford a £1m violin but many of them play an instrument that is 'loaned' to them by a rich collector/benefactor.

Just out of curiosity, who loaned Jacquelin DuPre her cello, and who has it now? Watched Hillary and Jackie on DVD last week and it got me wandering?

 

[Joe]

Just out of curiosity, who loaned Jacquelin DuPre her cello, and who has it now?

It was me. She never gave it back, either. That's the last time I lend anyone a cello!