Why cables can be expensive

[DrMartin]

Contrast that to say Laskys on the Tottenham Ct Rd in the 70s where you had wall to wall hi-fi. Nothing high-end but lots of decent affordable kit - and of course no AV market.

God, that takes me back! All the good stuff was upstairs in the 'demo room'. That's where I heard my first pair of Quad electrostatics combined with Quad's 'new' sub-woofer - the round one. They were playing ELP's 'Tank' using a Revox RtR as a source - sublime! I was about 16 at the time.

(sorry for butting in there but it stirred a significant memory)

 

[RobHolt]

God, that takes me back! All the good stuff was upstairs in the 'demo room'. That's where I heard my first pair of Quad electrostatics combined with Quad's 'new' sub-woofer - the round one. They were playing ELP's 'Tank' using a Revox RtR as a source - sublime! I was about 16 at the time.

(sorry for butting in there but it stirred a significant memory)

There are a pair of ESL in front of me as i type and a Revox B77 sitting over on the shelf

The Laskys speaker comparator system was a hoot.
'I want to hear that one up there..... second row and third from the left'
At the press of a button it starts to play.

Comet were similar back then.
Looking at some old mags the other day shows Comet full of good audio kit.
Now look at it - Kettles, fridges, ovens and mini systems.

 

[Richard Dunn]

can someone pin point whose fault it was that started the empire to decay and destroy itself from with in?

(correction applied so it makes sense). It won't destroy me only you if you don't change, you are the old model that is now unfit for purpose. You sit with product which you double the price of just for the priviledge of someone buying them off you. Pre on line it was necessary as the customer couldn't access the manufacturer, especially to make a choice, now they can - new market - new times - Darwins theory applies, you are redundant, out of time, no longer necessary - a dinosaur attached like a wart on the industry, thrashing around trying to survive the extinction event.

 

[flatpopely]

Whilst I agree that the Hi-Fi industry as a whole has shrunk I believe we are now at a stage where the number of retailers is correct for the 'specialist' demand that exists.

Buying hi-fi on line will only ever be small in numbers compared to buying through retail. For non hi-fi audio products then eBay et all is a good way to buy but the 'real' hi-fi stuff will still sell through retailers, albeit in smaller numbers than the glory days of the 80,90s.

Whenever I go into my local dealer they are always busy!

 

[Fnuckle]

(correction applied so it makes sense). It won't destroy me only you if you don't change, you are the old model that is now unfit for purpose. You sit with product which you double the price of just for the priviledge of someone buying them off you. Pre on line it was necessary as the customer couldn't access the manufacturer, especially to make a choice, now they can - new market - new times - Darwins theory applies, you are redundant, out of time, no longer necessary - a dinosaur attached like a wart on the industry, thrashing around trying to survive the extinction event.

That's rich coming from someone selling products that would have been considered too hair-shirt 20 years ago!

The business model is changing, yes. Whether it's changing to be sustainable remains to be seen. Selling old wine in old bottles in a new way doesn't strike me as forward-thinking.

 

[Richard Dunn]

That's rich coming from someone selling products that would have been considered too hair-shirt 20 years ago!

The business model is changing, yes. Whether it's changing to be sustainable remains to be seen. Selling old wine in old bottles in a new way doesn't strike me as forward-thinking.

So the insults start again - your knowledge is innacurate and miniscule. NVA has been around since 1982 and it sold though retail outlets until 2000. Same design principles, and they are no more hairshirt than Naim or Exposure.

 

[Richard Dunn]

Will people please stop leading this discusion to nva, it is irrelevent and will lead to another witch hunt, which is probably what the vested interests want in order to shut me up. I am here as an individual, nothing more.

I am cronicling changes in the industry, I am not talking about a company, I am talking about a principle and a method that could apply to any company or even the whole industry. I am explaining the advantages and the discussion is showing the dissadvantages (nothing in this world is perfect). This discussion is part of the process to try to establish a new way, which I think everyone will agree is needed as the old way is broken.

 

[flatpopely]

This discussion is part of the process to try to establish a new way, which I think everyone will agree is needed as the old way is broken.

I don't agree that the old way is broken. Things have changed and the industry has downsized as a result. Its pretty much stable now I believe.

 

[Fnuckle]

Will people please stop leading this discusion to nva, it is irrelevent and will lead to another witch hunt, which is probably what the vested interests want in order to shut me up. I am here as an individual, nothing more.

I am cronicling changes in the industry, I am not talking about a company, I am talking about a principle and a method that could apply to any company or even the whole industry. I am explaining the advantages and the discussion is showing the dissadvantages (nothing in this world is perfect). This discussion is part of the process to try to establish a new way, which I think everyone will agree is needed as the old way is broken.

Fair enough.

My point doesn't necessarily apply just to your company though. It applies universally. A new business model selling old-fashioned products is not going to work. You need stronger medicine to live through this.

Edit: This is one of the reasons why I hold out so little hope for the audio industry. We have companies with innovative new products, but sell them through outmoded channels and we have companies with innovative new channels to market and nothing interesting to sell. The companies with innovative new products sold intelligently are practically non-existent.

 

[Mescalito]

So who are you, what do you do for a living, why is your agenda so obvious?

First of all, my apologies in the delay in responding to your question, Richard, I have been away for the weekend.

I am a corrosion engineer by trade. I have a 2:1 in Physics and another in Mathematics.

I have no agenda. I just have a visceral dislike of wooly thinking, psychobabble and pseudoscience. When I see it, I point it out.

Chris

 

[Mescalito]

Back to the origin - "why cables can be expensive"

Old ways

From my experience the cable costs less to produce in many cases than the packaging.

Without good reviews and constant mentions in magazines, then forget it, and that costs serious advertising money.

A retailer will not take a cable unless he makes a serious profit margin, normally a doubling of price but I have know for them to ask for tripling of price if it is a new product, no matter how good.

So £10 raw costs, call it £10 packaging, call it £20 to cover marketing costs, call it £40 manufacturer profit margin (times 2 direct costs), call it £10 to cover the difficulty to getting the retailer to pay you (i.e. interest on extended credit) = £90.

Retailer wants minimum another £90 for him (if you are lucky) so cable retails for £180.

New ways

Direct sold with 30 day return for refund.

Ebay is best as you get reviews and build up a reputation.

No packaging, just a jiffy bag.

No magazines, no reviews, no advertising. Just on-line recs through forums and feedbacks.

So £10 raw cost, £2 to cover ebay / paypal and returns costs, £3 to cover P&P, manufacturers profit (times 2 direct costs) £15 = £30 selling price.

Sort of a no brainer, don't you think?

Richard,

You have just confirmed my suspicions regarding your motives. Viral marketing and not very subtle at that.

Chris

 

[Richard Dunn]

I think we need to look into history to see how the present way to market was established and the reasons.

The origins of our industry go back to the 1950's and lots of men demobbed from the army but with electronic skills from the war, plus the availability of large amounts of government surplus ex war material in the way of components. A DIY hobby started based around companies who competed at the gov auction to buy this stuff like Lasky's, G W Smith, Henry's and Comet based in Hull, etc. This created a hobby that was then helped by the publishing business with the creation of Wireless World magazine and others. Some of these hobbyists like Walker with Quad and Leak etc started to sell their designs which they did through the established brown goods network then established with radio and TV shops. This meant they sold through wholesalers who marked it up and then sold it to the retailers.

This all changed with the end of retail price maintanance by law which brought in the discounters. The discounters were the hobbyist surplus shops that started to sell finished goods and because of their buying power they forced down prices from the wholesalers and a price war emerged between them with more and more advertising to say "my price is cheapest" which created a surge in Hi-Fi magazines to service this market and need for advertising. Also at that time the Japanese companies had invaded the market with cheap quality goods that put a lot of British product to shame. Everything was reviewed, sold and advertised still on specifications.

Some of the British companies along with the established and newer traditional brown goods shops wanted a way to counter this otherwise they would have died. So (illegal) agreements were taken out direct with manufacturers to protect their market, to keep product out of the discounters. But it was all still promoted purely on specs.

Things changed again with a certain Scottish business man who decided to market a concept that he thought the industry needed and saw a way to make lots of money. Very simple - decide what to buy by listening to a product and not just get the best spec. The established dealers like Grahams etc jumped at it, as it gave them an advantage in a market that they were losing. BUT for it to work a whole network of middle men and add ons had to be established to create the brainwash, plus the incentive of high profit margins was needed to pay for all this. Magazines, retailers, reveiwers, expert brainwashed salesmen - all the middle men or as I call them slurpers were created from this - and the flat earth was created. Other companies (such as nva) came in to compete in this market but the prime movers just created more bullshit by saying "now don't listen and choose, you must listen to what we tell you to listen for, and to" and the market was put into a state of control even to the forming of institutions like BADA that has lasted up to the recent past.

Smaller offshoot of this marketing method appeared such as the valve thing, until AV and then the market shifted a bit back to the discounters, who had suffered with many of them like Lasky's going bust and others like Comet down marketing in Hi-Fi terms.

OK what comes around goes around and the industry is now going back to its root enthusiasts again, Hi-Fi is no longer a "must have", many more thing compete for available dosh. The whole on line thing has opened up new possibilities and ways to market that make the old ways seem expensive and unnecessary.

This part of this thread is just exploring ways that the market will / could change. It has always changed as you can see and it is always the vested interests, the Luddites and the Dinosaurs that try to stop the changes, but it is natural and unstoppable.

 

[DrMartin]

So the insults start again - your knowledge is innacurate and miniscule..

I really don't think you are in any position to criticise what you see as insulting behaviour when you choose to make a point of correcting the text of someone whose first language is not english in a very patronising way. That is very rude and insulting. In fact your whole tone throughout this thread is patronising.

Someone made a point earlier in this thread about how newcomers to the hobby could very easily be put off the whole thing through witnessing some of the attitudes expressed here and I completely agree.

If you are representetive of the 'industry' then it's certainly no surprise that it is diminishing.

 

[Richard Dunn]

Richard,

You have just confirmed my suspicions regarding your motives. Viral marketing and not very subtle at that.

Chris

If that is what you think then you are dafter than I thought you were. My posts either side of this bit of this dissing nonsense explain the reality.

But it is to be expected, try to start a witch hunt to shut up the piano player

 

[Mescalito]

If that is what you think then you are dafter than I thought you were. My posts either side of this bit of this dissing nonsense explain the reality.

But it is to be expected, try to start a witch hunt to shut up the piano player

Richard, I have since read past the post which prompted my post. I would appear that I was not the only one to se the post as blatantly self promotional.

Chris

 

[Richard Dunn]

Richard, I have since read past the post which prompted my post. I would appear that I was not the only one to se the post as blatantly self promotional.

Chris

I am promoting my opinions, at no point have I promoted a company or product. If I was a viral marketer I would have, the way we had AVI ADM9 thrust down our throats post after post on so many forums. Show me where I have promoted a company or product.

 

[Fnuckle]

OK what comes around goes around and the industry is now going back to its root enthusiasts again.

Merely wishing this to be true doesn't make it true. The 1950s hobby market was predicated on a lot of people learning basic field electronics repair in WWII. Even those not trained in communications trained and fought alongside regular guys who were trained in radio operation and repair, so electronics was demystified. With a large war surplus market and a whole bunch of people no longer thinking the insides of an amplifier was a place containing dark magic, the home hi-fi market grew.

That base-line of electronics and kit-building knowledge is simply not there anymore, which is perhaps why the audio industry can get away with such outrageous foo nonsense. You'll always get a tiny, tiny handful of people wanting to build their own equipment, just like you get kit car builders. But, like the kit car industry, these bodgers and builders are parasitic upon a mainstream industry; no one dopes their own drive units anymore, they rely on third party manufacturers to make drivers. And, if the mainstream market for drive units goes into sharp decline, the price of drivers for kit speakers rockets up and the quality control rockets down.

Mostly though, the root enthusiast market is little more than an invention, in the heads of those who want there to be a root enthusiast market. A few dozen guys on a forum, bemoaning that it isn't 1986 anymore do not constitute a roots revival of hi-fi.

What little interest in audio that still exists in a wider market is going to be increasingly dismissive of the nonsense previous generations happily put up with. The hi-fi as hobby type of the next few years will be more likely to spend time pouring over 'how to' books on TCP/IP than they are speaker building cookbooks. That's where their interests lie. Do you really, seriously think someone who uses their laptop as everything from music server to lighting controller will put up with an amplifier without a remote control, no matter how elegant the "it sounds better" argument?

 

[RobHolt]

Everyone calm dowm - for once a bloody cable thread has morphed into a good discussion.

Everyone step back form the keyboard and take a deep breath.

 

[Dave Simpson]

Indeed...carry on. I'll wager 200 quatloos on the newcomer.

 

[Richard Dunn]

Why do cables create such a reaction, if we started talking about the influence of printed circuit boards would there be the same reaction. No of course not because it is in the amp or whatever and the end user has nothing to do with it or that he can do with it. So if I say that printed circuit board material has an influence on sound, and even the printing of solder resist on the board and even dafter in some case the printed component ident. Does that seem any stranger than cable differences as the causes are similar IMO.