Why cables can be expensive

[Richard Dunn]

That will be interesting to see.
However as someone who has frequently claimed that blind testing puts unnatural stress on the participants and masks differences, if you obtain a clear positive result, will you then accept that the idea is credible and works?

For FF'k sake, how many times do I have to say it. I have been doing blind testing for over twenty years, I had 10 years of it on the Hi-Fi Choice panels, do you really think I don't know what it is. I know what it does and what it doesn't do, I know the psychology of it as I study it and practice it in my other persona as a weapon.

I have watched and laughed at so called famous designers and marketing men not even able to recognise their own product and be made to look complete idiots. You simply do not understand what is going on and what the process entails internally, in your energetic system, and the more you worry about it, the more you panic, and the more your perception shuts down. What do you think most people use music for, it is relaxation and emotion stimulation. The former is quite simply meditation, try to meditate in a state of stress!! The latter requires your energetic system to open to the stimulus and fear of failure and ridicule shuts it down. Why do you think I was used by Paul Messenger and HFC, because I couldn't give a shit!! I had no fear, I got into real trouble at one session at Pauls as my speakers were there, when they went on after two notes I just laughed and said Cubes. I have also done it with other speakers, the clearer more informative ones are so easy to spot. I remember when little JPW just musically pissed on KEFs and B&Ws costing twenty or thirty times more. And that is what you get with cable, changes in information. Speakers in Pauls Naim system were easy but cables would have been a bit different as it wasn't exactly very subtle.

So this is where the system used becomes important, if the window is dirty you cant see the fly poo!

 

[RobHolt]

Every single thing has difference, there is nothing with no difference, it doesn't exist.

Agreed.

Where I suspect we differ is that I often find these differences to be so small as to be inaudible, or if audible they are seldom important.

I also don't think that the differences in resolving power are as great as you indicate where amplifiers are concerned. Admittedly I have very limited experience with your amplifiers but I've used literally dozens of others and find that where they attain basic competency (the D Self test) they are equally able to resolve cable effects.

If an amplifier can resolve subtle differences downstream in say the TT setup, DAC, choice of tape on the open reel, different viny pressings etc, then it follows that it cannot be selectively 'deaf' to cable effects.

 

[Richard Dunn]

I agree with some of that but you need to separate appreciation and enjoyment of music - which is very clearly subjective - from the reliable identification of differences, which should be objectively assessed.

The same tactics that sold the LP12 can and are used by many to sell cables.
If you've never attended a demonstration of Nordost cables you should take the opportunity at the next event. The sound characteristics are described to the listeners before the cables are played, the order in which they are played is always in ascending cost, and the salesman will refuse point blank to plat the cheapest cable agein at the end of the session. Then there are those demonstrating support racks by by again giving either positive or negative 'instruction' to those listening, plus quite clear changes to body language.

Let me give you another example.
At one of my cable bakes a participant brought along some Deltec Black Slink interconnect. Thick serious looking stuff, I asked what the listener thought this will bring to the system. A list of expected changes was then given and I then proceed to connect the cable up and we listened. The listener heard the expected effects.
Trouble is the cable wasn't actually connected but was simply resting behind the system appearing to be in circuit.
Now, where did the expectation for this 'sound' originate?
Manufacturer blurb, Magazine reviews and forums.
People read and digest this stuff and it alters their perception.

If that cable really did produce a difference and say we discovered that it was due to a capacitance issue, then of course the listener is able to express a preference for the result either in pure sound character terms or what you might call musicality. That is a subjective reaction and it shouldn't be criticised.

Going further, it might surprise you to learn that I subjectively prefer speakers with a small presence dip followed by some HF lift. Technically wrong but I prefer my music played through such a speaker. It appeals to me.
But there should be understanding as to what causes this preference.

At the end of the day we are all subjectivists, but objectivity is imperative for testing claims made which challenge common sense.

What you call expectation bias is mostly people trying to not make themselves look idiots, it is sheep behaviour, hide in the flock, do what is expected of you. Sometimes people have nothing to say but think they have to say something. It is all just normal human behaviour, we should celebrate it we are all just human, and far more humans are idiots than are geniuses. Celebrate the idiot

 

[RobHolt]

For FF'k sake, how many times do I have to say it. I have been doing blind testing for over twenty years, I had 10 years of it on the Hi-Fi Choice panels, do you really think I don't know what it is. I know what it does and what it doesn't do, I know the psychology of it as I study it and practice it in my other persona as a weapon.

I have watched and laughed at so called famous designers and marketing men not even able to recognise their own product and be made to look complete idiots. You simply do not understand what is going on and what the process entails internally, in your energetic system, and the more you worry about it, the more you panic, and the more your perception shuts down. What do you think most people use music for, it is relaxation and emotion stimulation. The former is quite simply meditation, try to meditate in a state of stress!! The latter requires your energetic system to open to the stimulus and fear of failure and ridicule shuts it down. Why do you think I was used by Paul Messenger and HFC, because I couldn't give a shit!! I had no fear, I got into real trouble at one session at Pauls as my speakers were there, when they went on after two notes I just laughed and said Cubes. I have also done it with other speakers, the clearer more informative ones are so easy to spot. I remember when little JPW just musically pissed on KEFs and B&Ws costing twenty or thirty times more. And that is what you get with cable, changes in information. Speakers in Pauls Naim system were easy but cables would have been a bit different as it wasn't exactly very subtle.

So this is where the system used becomes important, if the window is dirty you cant see the fly poo!

Well firstly, I would hope that you could identify Cubes, or many other speakers come to that as the differences are usually gross. I'd never blind test speakers - there is little point other than fun or to put the designer on the spot.

On your more substantive point with regard to the reaction of the body and mind at blind tests, even if you had a point you have to weight this against the equally unwelcome stress of sighted dem. The talking demonstrator, the presence of the designer, the desire not to say the wrong thing and look a tit in front of the others.
These things are still present at a conventional demonstration.

So even accepting you argument (which I don't) , blind testing still removes a number of serious obstacles to fair assessment.

 

[DrMartin]

No, it is not. I have no need, nor is there any obligation in any way to prove a single thing to...I'm sorry, who are you?


Who are you?


I will share my view, and if you need measurements to understand what I describe then the problem is communication. If you need measurements to accept a facet of musical communication as real then the problem is with your ability to process communication.

I didn't say anything about measurements ...

It may remain unfounded with you, but if it is real then you are losing out. Can you provide proof that the problem is not you?

If it is real but I can't hear it then you are correct, I am losing out.

 

[RobHolt]

Well, I think I will have to come and hear you demonstrate your cables and you'll need to come and hear me do the same.

I'm not certain why the issues in the above post would necessarily be more important at a blind dem than a sighted one. You can make stress arguments for both methods. I'll do a little research on Tai-Chi Chuan though.

Well this has been lively


<Richard, this is in response to your post 105 but it has now gone>

 

[Richard Dunn]

Well, I think I will have to come and hear you demonstrate your cables and you'll need to come and hear me do the same.

I'm not certain why the issues in the above post would necessarily be more important at a blind dem than a sighted one. You can make stress arguments for both methods. I'll do a little research on Tai-Chi Chuan though.

Well this has been lively


<Richard, this is in response to your post 105 but it has now gone>

I deleted it as I thought it would just be misunderstood and for most people would be off topic.

 

[RobHolt]

I saw it and will look up the subject.

 

[ar-t]

I thought the purpose of this thread is why cables are so expensive, not whether they should be, or whether they make a difference or not.

OK, this is simple. Here is how you get into the cable business:

Contact an outfit, like New England Wire Co.

http://www.newenglandwire.com/

If you can afford a 5000' run (what the minimum usually is), then all you have to do is pony up your money, get some sleeving and heat shrink, and voila! You are in the cable business.

The only reason cables are so expensive is that some of you think is has to be crap unless it is expensive. The cost of the wire/cable is not that much. (The most expensive one we use is around $3/foot.) Labor cost can not be anywhere near as much as say...........building a Class A amp. So, where does the cost come from?

Your gullibility, that is where. As I mentioned earlier, don't tell me you will all buy really good cables that are not expensive. I know that is not true. (A lot of that is the fault of the dealers, but that is another story for another time.)

Now, get mad if you want, but that is the bottom line. A certain "wire bandit" bragged at CES one year that their multi-kilobuck cable cost them $85, complete, boxed and ready for sale. So, where does that other $3500 go, or come from?

 

[Dev]

I thought the purpose of this thread is why cables are so expensive, ...

Actually I thought the OP was meant to be funny.

 

[jazid]

HI Dev,
I thought the original post WAS funny, and some of the follow ups too.

Naughty mischeivous Mr Triode Moderator for starting it.

 

[Purite Audio]

Pat wrote 'Your gullibility, that is where. As I mentioned earlier, don't tell me you will all buy really good cables that are not expensive. I know that is not true. (A lot of that is the fault of the dealers, but that is another story for another time.)

Dealers at fault! How dare you sir!
VB Keith.

 

[Richard Dunn]

Dealer margins on cables are about of half of the price. So you give to the dealer the same money as you give the manufacturer, just for it to sit on his shelf waiting for you to walk into his web

So is on-line better and better priced. In some instances yes as they sell to you at trade (half price), for others it is just an excuse to get all the slurp for themselves.

The major advantage of on-line in the UK and EU is by law you must give a 30days full send back and refund option so you can get different cables to try for just the loss of postage cost. But watch out for companies that charge a re-stocking fee, it is dubious if it is legal but some companies do it.

 

[Purite Audio]

I use Fuzion Kelsey for all my cables, they are 'pro audio' make extremely good quality cables , to any length, or type of connection, to give you an example ,their speaker cable, for 2x 3m banana terminated was £30 and their turnaround time is usually next day, highly recommended.

Keith.

 

[Fnuckle]

The last blind test on cables I saw was one run at AVReview a few years back. They wanted to get forum people in on the test. It read like they were trying to herd cats.

The net result was those who thought they couldn't hear differences heard the least differences, those who did accurately spotted different cables and those in between wandered off.

http://www.avreview.co.uk/news/article/mps/uan/1863

 

[DrMartin]

I thought the purpose of this thread is why cables are so expensive, not whether they should be, or whether they make a difference or not.

OK, this is simple. Here is how you get into the cable business:

Contact an outfit, like New England Wire Co.

http://www.newenglandwire.com/

If you can afford a 5000' run (what the minimum usually is), then all you have to do is pony up your money, get some sleeving and heat shrink, and voila! You are in the cable business.

The only reason cables are so expensive is that some of you think is has to be crap unless it is expensive. The cost of the wire/cable is not that much. (The most expensive one we use is around $3/foot.) Labor cost can not be anywhere near as much as say...........building a Class A amp. So, where does the cost come from?

Your gullibility, that is where. As I mentioned earlier, don't tell me you will all buy really good cables that are not expensive. I know that is not true. (A lot of that is the fault of the dealers, but that is another story for another time.)

Now, get mad if you want, but that is the bottom line. A certain "wire bandit" bragged at CES one year that their multi-kilobuck cable cost them $85, complete, boxed and ready for sale. So, where does that other $3500 go, or come from?

Excellent post.

 

[Richard Dunn]

Well, I think I will have to come and hear you demonstrate your cables and you'll need to come and hear me do the same.

I'm not certain why the issues in the above post would necessarily be more important at a blind dem than a sighted one. You can make stress arguments for both methods. I'll do a little research on Tai-Chi Chuan though.

Well this has been lively


<Richard, this is in response to your post 105 but it has now gone>

You are welcome to come on the 17th July if you can make it http://thehifisubjectivist.noadforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=162&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

 

[Mescalito]

There are always going to be people posting on a forum with hidden agenda. Someone who markets relatively high end kit on the basis of ephemera obviously has a very strong vested interest in trying to validate these ephemera.

All I am saying is bear this in mind when reading some threads.

Chris

 

[Mescalito]

Don't worry about it Alan this is normal behaviour from them and as you will see from later posts others will jump in with the personal insults. The reason is they want to shut you up, it is just an ego thing. They cannot hear it so they get all hot and high blood pressure when people say they can. Then they accuse other people of rudeness

As you know I have a computer audio Bake-Off at my place in July I will blind SCD v SPD v SSPD and we will see the result from the attendees. I know what will happen if people say they hear it, the idiots will say "well it has to be double blind" or some such nonsense - you can't win with them, it is like a brainwash.

Nobody wants to shut anyone up, Richard. This is not the Naim forum.

But if someone makes a claim which appears irrational, they should expect to be challenged over it.

Chris

 

[Richard Dunn]

There are always going to be people posting on a forum with hidden agenda. Someone who markets relatively high end kit on the basis of ephemera obviously has a very strong vested interest in trying to validate these ephemera.

All I am saying is bear this in mind when reading some threads.

Chris

So who are you, what do you do for a living, why is your agenda so obvious?