Always wanted a valve amp?

Basil,

How many speakers are designed for specifically for valve amps today?
I don't know, but I suspect that some very high efficiency speakers (98+db/watt/metre) aren't being designed with a powerful SS amp in mind. Maybe Keith can help, as he sells a very high efficiency speaker and may know what the designer intended them to be powered by.


And on a side issue, how can you possibly justify the use of valves and remain green?
Personally? By buying electricity from a low-carbon power supplier and paying a premium for it, and by making real energy cutbacks in far more important areas.

The extra juice my Stingray draws over, say, a 102, Hi-Cap, NAPSC and 250 (what I had before) is only a couple of hundred watts and only when the amp is on. This isn't that much energy and it's negligible relative to changing all the lights in the house to CFLs, living close to work, being a veggie, buying local produce when it's available, using public transport, walking -- i.e., the sorts of things that make a real difference.

(And what the blackdog said.)

Joe
 
How many speakers are designed for specifically for valve amps today?

And on a side issue, how can you possibly justify the use of valves and remain green?




I doubt many manufacturers would say that valve amps are the only ones to work with their speakers - after all to some extent, an amplifier is an amplifier - choice is a matter of taste.


quite a few loudspeakers were designed with 'valve amps in mind'.

If you go to the audio show advertised in another thread, you would have the opportunity to speak to plenty of loudspeaker designers.

About half the rooms (at least) use valve amps in them.. we have to presume this is because the exhibitors feel that this will makes the best sound - otherwise why make that choice?
 
In the interests of representing another side, interested readers should scroll down the link below (an article in Stereophile by our own Markus!)..

to the section by Jurgen Ackermann, a psychologist who performed a blind test on audio listeners / valve amps as a part of his PHD -

http://www.stereophile.com/features/203/index2.html

I'm guessing there was no attempt at level matching, so the valve system was played at a lower level to produce the results?

I can do no better than this, one of the replies to the article

to the original emotion?
Editor: I think we have to accept the fact that Stereophile is no longer committed to high-fidelity sound reproduction. That conclusion is inescapable after reading the first of Markus Sauer's "God is in the Nuances" articles (January 2000, Vol.23 No.1).

Sauer argues that, since most music listeners prefer distorted sound, and since these listeners should choose audio components that distort the sound in the way they find pleasing, it is regrettable that "You cannot tell what your emotional response to a component's sound will be from a description by a critical listener..."

This carries us back to the days of the console-model and table-model radio/phonos with distortion engineered in to create a characteristic "sound" for the brand line: customers shopped for the Stromberg-Carlson "bass," the "mellow" sound of the Philco, the varying frequency ranges and the distortions therein of the Zenith, Silvertone, Majestic, Magnavox, RCA Victor, Emerson, ad infinitum, sets. The playback equipment was lousy, so we shopped around to find sets that sounded good to us when we played the recordings (also, for the most part, lousy) that were available to us.

High fidelity is the opposite of that approach. The goal of hi-fi equipment is accurate reproduction of the signal fed into it. In the beginning, that meant live sounds, usually orchestras and bands. But since some of the early adherents were interested in sound but not necessarily music, they tested their systems with everyday sounds---jingling door keys, the snaps and crackles of a Volkswagen motor cooling, even the sound of rain, captured when a hi-fi radio station hung a microphone out a window one rainy day. High fidelity meant fidelity to actual sounds.

That changed. More people became interested, bringing in more of those who listened to the highly processed, distorted, never-heard-in-the-real-world sound of bop, bebop, rock'n'roll, rock, heavy metal, synthesizers, et al. The initial population of sound nuts, classical-music freaks, and jazz freaks enlarged to include people who, knowingly or not, wanted the sounds coming from their "stereos" to produce the same effect in them as did recreational drugs. More and more representatives of this mindset became reviewers of audio equipment.

J. Gordon Holt warned us about this. He insisted that evaluation had to be based on real sounds---did the oboe sound like an oboe, the trombone like a trombone, the orchestra like an orchestra, the hall like the actual recording venue? For this position, the old coot was derided, and Stereophile proceeded to publish reviews describing how sounds that had never existed in real life sounded when played through certain components. But, since there is no reference sound to compare these sounds against, reviewers talked about how a certain component "kicked butt," unaware that what they were really praising was the way the equipment distorted the sound in ways that they found pleasing. They stopped comparing sound systems against reality and instead compared sound systems against each other.

Markus Sauer's article is an inevitable result of the movement away from high fidelity. In the article, Sauer establishes premises, supports them by citing a study conducted by Jürgen Ackermann, and comes up with the conclusion quoted (in part) above. But I find many of Sauer's premises questionable and/or insupportable, and the Ackermann study poorly designed (although rigorously conducted) and fatally flawed.

I would dearly love to go into detail about my problems with Sauer's article and Ackerman's study, but I doubt that I would ever be allotted the space necessary to support my slanderous accusation. So I will confine myself to addressing what I consider the "fatal flaw" in Ackerman's study: Ackerman compares the "emotional" reactions of test subjects to three varying sound systems, telling us which of the three systems that particular test panel preferred. That's all. We can't extrapolate from that, or draw any general conclusions, or decide which set is best, or even how other test panels would rate the same systems.

Ackermann's study, as described by Sauer, is fatally flawed because it did not establish a reference standard, such as comparison of the three systems against live music or a reference system of known quality. Without that, his study has no relevance to high-fidelity reproduction.

Sauer's self-described "far-reaching" conclusion is that "you cannot tell what your emotional response to a component's sound will be from a description by a critical listener." Why would any music-loving audiophile want to? What we want are components with the least possible sound of their own; components that will pass through, with the least possible distortion, the music we feed into them. If there is distortion that arouses emotion, let it be in the source itself---the tape, the CD, the LP, the DVD, whatever---but not in the equipment.

It is true that, in the old days, we compared the "sound" of the components---the HH Scott against the Fisher against the Marantz against the McIntosh against the Dynakit against the Heathkit against the Bell against the Bogen against whatever---and we made our choices on the basis of what "sounded best" to us. But the choice was based on the absence of sound created by the components themselves: We picked equipment that we thought imposed the least distortion on the signal fed through it---the equipment that gave us the closest illusion of real music coming from real performers on real instruments in real acoustic spaces.

Now, on the rare possibility that some reader has stuck with me this far, I want to make it plain that I do not want to deprive people of their right to listen to any kind of music or any kind of sound system. I do not want to stop reviewers from writing for those consumers who want their components to have characteristic sounds. I do not look down on magazines that cater to that taste---after all, such listeners make up the majority of listeners, and catering to them makes good economic sense. I do not in any way feel superior to people who want to play distorted music through sets that impose more distortion. I'll let them ride their horse if they let me ride mine.

But I think Stereophile is at a crisis point and needs to make a decision. I see three courses of action: go back to dealing with high-fidelity reproduction; stick to the present course into the sound-for-sound's-sake camp; or split into two separate publications. I strongly doubt that one publication can serve the needs of two such disparate populations.

Let me make that even stronger: It is impossible for Stereophile to keep a foot in each camp and remain the highly regarded (although frequently attacked) and respected publication of record that it has been.---Paul A. Alter, Pittsburgh, PA, [email protected]
 
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i always wated a good valve power amp using 211's with a great constant psu, but never heard one with a slid bass line, i am sure that is not the fault of the valves but more to do do with the psu, correct me,
 
Basil,

Did you select your equipment objectively based on specs and measurements or did you do it subjectively using your ears? Be honest.

Objectivism is all fine and proper in science, and audio could undoubtedly do with a great deal less bullshit and snake oil, but I'm not testing hypotheses with my system. It's a device that reproduces music in a way that I find appealing.

Joe

P.S. I hope you don't have a table. They're all terrible, distortion-ridden devices, easily beaten objectively by even the cheapest of CD players.
 
every divice has harmonic distortion no matter what specs say, the harmonic distortions also in the human body as most of our organs work in different frequencies, hence the different choice in "prefereable sound" however some hd's can be very confortable where others could be quite irritating, as most of the human organs can find a perfect fulcrom to sound waves others may not,
 
The green issue:

My SETs draw about 180 watts - or 360 watts for the stereo pair.

This is rather less than certain Krell ss amps that draw over 500 watts when idling, but rather more than my old Creek CAS4040 integrated.
 
would they sound better if we painted everything green?? will it then get aCE seal?!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
 
I'm guessing there was no attempt at level matching, so the valve system was played at a lower level to produce the results?

I can do no better than this, one of the replies to the article


did you not read it then?

The components had been selected as being reasonably representative of their kind. The loudspeakers were held constant and had been selected for their ability to sound equally good driven by tubes or transistors. If anything, the system favored the expensive transistor combo, which had been selected because it was one of the best-selling combinations in its price range, and also because comparative listening tests against some other transistor amps had revealed this combo to sound particularly good in the test configuration. All three systems were played at exactly the same loudness level.
 
I never cared for valve stuff.
I never had one until that day that I bought my speakers (first version) second hand.
With them I bought the valve amps which were used for driving the mid and high frequencies at the dealer's place. These amps were from the same company as the loudspeakers.
Only afterwards I realized what a great deal I did. Now for the mid and high frequencies I wouldn't go back to solid state.

For my subs instead I wouldn't use any valve amp. At the moment I'll stick to my Krell FPB 700cx.
 
did you not read it then?

The components had been selected as being reasonably representative of their kind. The loudspeakers were held constant and had been selected for their ability to sound equally good driven by tubes or transistors. If anything, the system favored the expensive transistor combo, which had been selected because it was one of the best-selling combinations in its price range, and also because comparative listening tests against some other transistor amps had revealed this combo to sound particularly good in the test configuration. All three systems were played at exactly the same loudness level.


I quickly skimmed through it, as I thought I made clear.

I'm guessing there was no attempt at level matching, so the valve system was played at a lower level to produce the results?

But as the guy whos reply I quoted said:

What we want are components with the least possible sound of their own; components that will pass through, with the least possible distortion, the music we feed into them. If there is distortion that arouses emotion, let it be in the source itself---the tape, the CD, the LP, the DVD, whatever---but not in the equipment.
 
Basil,

And on a side issue, how can you possibly justify the use of valves and remain green?
Curiosity got the better of me, so while I was out yesterday buying hedge clippers at the hardware store I bought a power meter, one of those deelies you plug things into to see how much power they draw.

I first checked the meter for accuracy by plugging some known wattage lights into it. The power reading was as expected — e.g., the meter read in watts what's printed on the side of the bulb — i.e., a 28-watt bulb drew 28 watts of power.

As expected, appliances like the kettle and toaster suck lots of juice, about 1,500 watts each.

The hi-fi as a whole draws less than 200 watts and that's with everything on — the P9's power supply, P-75 phono stage, CD2, Stingray and Creek headphone amp. The Stingray alone draws a bit more than 100 watts, about the same as a bright incandescent.

More is more, and less is less, but I think I can justify a compoent that uses about 100 watts when it's running. And it's only running when I'm listening to music. (When I had Naim amps I left the stack powered up continuously, as per conventional wisdom.)

If I had an active tube preamp (the Stingray has a passive one) and big, powerful tube mono blocks I'd be using much more, but the Stingray isn't a power hog.

Joe
 
Hmmm. Just joined this forum because I'll be looking up info on valve amp kits, (any pointers to the best thread re that would save me a bit of time), but I got drawn into this thread. I was always told you to get a good sound you'd best spend the most on the 1st component, I.E. the turntable. But that's not strictly true is it, it's the lug-holes first. I should think the best thing to do at the very beginning and before you start parting with your cash is get your ears syringed and get them tested. Talk all you like about measurable sonic properties but it aint nowhere near as complicated as the ear and brain as this short article will explain;

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/blog/2010/may/14/brain-hears-silent-movies
 
The article mentioned by the original poster is generally very good and largely accurate, as is most of Rod Elliot's stuff.
There is so much I would like to say but in my line of work I have to try to be largely un-opinionated! Don't want to scare the punters off :D
Try this article from my website, some may find it useful :)

http://www.arklesselectronics.com/articles.html
 
Basil,

Did you select your equipment objectively based on specs and measurements or did you do it subjectively using your ears? Be honest.

Objectivism is all fine and proper in science, and audio could undoubtedly do with a great deal less bullshit and snake oil, but I'm not testing hypotheses with my system. It's a device that reproduces music in a way that I find appealing.

That says it all, really.

Going off at a slight tangent, why do some audiophiles feel the need to have a go at others based on what kit they enjoy? "YOU haven't got kit as good as mine, 'cos your kit is WRONG and I can PROVE it." Yeah, and my dad is bigger than your dad.

I've always had valve amps. I've heard some good SS amps (and a very impressive valve pre/SS power combo) but none of the SS amps ever really fired my rockets. Some of the valve ones do, so that's what I've bought. It's never crossed my mind that people who like SS are wrong, or people that don't share my love of horn speakers (and there's lots of those) are wrong. In fact I don't see any conflict at all. Buy what pleases you and let others do the same. It ain't brain science. Or rocket surgery.
 
I'm guessing there was no attempt at level matching, so the valve system was played at a lower level to produce the results?

I can do no better than this, one of the replies to the article

Only just saw this. With respect, I think Mr. Alter missed my point completely, as pointed out here.

As Chris has pointed out, the systems were played at identical levels.

There recently was some controversy on a German forum about another aspect of Ackermann's findings. They were never peer reviewed as he never finished his thesis, lured into gainful employment before it was completed. Had I known this at the time the article was written, I would have added a caveat.

I have no reason to doubt the integrity of the test set-up, and the correctness of the results given.
 
That says it all, really.

Going off at a slight tangent, why do some audiophiles feel the need to have a go at others based on what kit they enjoy? "YOU haven't got kit as good as mine, 'cos your kit is WRONG and I can PROVE it." Yeah, and my dad is bigger than your dad.

I don't think they do, generally.

Daft claims defying the fundamental laws of physics should however be challenged.
 
Unfortunately, hifi forum audiophiles do seem to have a problem with what others enjoy. Here's one example:

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=94191&page=11

Personally, I need some sort of evidence that there's an acoustical, mechanical or electrical relationship between one entity/adjustment or another before I'll be willing to buy into what's experienced (assuming I even hear a difference) but if some group of folks want to discuss how freezing photographs changed the sound of their rigs and their lives, I'm not going to disrupt their discussion -I simply won't participate.
 
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