Ban cable debates?

[DavidF]

all cable threads should live in one area, one section for pro, one section for against, and anyone who dares to post in the competitive viewpoint puts themself up for ridicule and abuse.

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wasn't that what as tried a week or so ago?

 

[dreftar]

It would be so sad to ban cable debates because on the forum they are the most entertaining!

Interesting enough as cables are, I now find that the general public are now drawn into the debate. At the local store they are retailing a DVD player with HD but no HDMI cable for £24. A cable to attach the DVD played to a HD TV costs as much as if not more than the device!!

 

[larkrise]

Is there some contentious issue over cables or have I missed something???

 

[banpe2006]

nice one larkrise!

 

[ShinOBIWAN]

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[ShinOBIWAN]

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[Steven Toy]

It would be better to ban objectivist/subjectivist discussions on any topic - be it cables, stands, mains, amplifiers or CD players for they just destroy the whole notion of a hi-fi discussion area. Such circular arguments have already been done to death, so why chuck the baby out with the bathwater and give the so-called objectivists some kind of victory on this?

With evaluation of any particular component or ancilliary tweak, context is always the key; there are no absolutes even if this in itself may seem an oxymoron.

Poster 1 says cable x has brought me more music (detail/insight) from my existing active music collection notably recording a.

Poster 2 says in blanket terms (thus crapping on the thread) that cables make no difference because this is the political stance/agenda s/he adopts.

There lies your problem. It's called trolling and should be dealt with accordingly.

As for guys peddling their wares here, you simply attach the words "Trade member" in place of "Registered user" to those particular accounts. That way everything is out in the open.

Problem solved.

 

[Tenson]

The fact that 75% of users want to either merge all the cable crap in to one thread or ban it completely says a lot about where the majority stand on whether cables are worthy of discussion.

The numbers speak for themselves, merge the lot and let anyone who wants to talk about cables do so in the never-ending cable thread.

With some luck, everyone outside of that thread can get on okay. In fact I think some more real life meetings between users could go a long way to improve that. The 'first Thursday of the month meetings' (as started a while ago and seem to have dwindled) would be a good way to do this, if it was organised for areas other than London. Could the forum send an automated PM to all users to inform them when the meet is near and where they would be held?

 

[ShinOBIWAN]

It would be better to ban objectivist/subjectivist discussions on any topic - be it cables, stands, mains, amplifiers or CD players for they just destroy the whole notion of a hi-fi discussion area. Such circular arguments have already been done to death, so why chuck the baby out with the bathwater and give the so-called objectivists some kind of victory on this?

Seems to me like people can sensibly debate cd players, speakers and the rest, most likely because there's real differences to be heard.

They are also FAR more interesting because the technical merits of WHY it sounds as it does can be discussed.

 

[alby]

The problem with the debate is not the subject, a perfectly reasonable topic of discussion, but the fact that the issue creates more heat than light and far too much negative energy ââ'¬â€œ name calling etc.
We should keep the topic open, but in a quiet dusty area of its own, where I can wander in and spy occasionally to see whether the issue has been resolved or if it has just turned into a bitch-fight.
It was once said of economists that if you laid them end to end they would not reach a conclusion , the same I fear can be said of cable debaters , except it would appear that cable debaters laid down would just end up kicking each other.

Merry Christmas everyone

Alby

 

[Steven Toy]

Seems to me like people can sensibly debate cd players, speakers and the rest, most likely because there's real differences to be heard.

...as there are in cables but this is not up for debate here. If you choose not to believe that for whatever reason then all you need to do is stay out of discussions where an OP waxes lyrical about a cable recently heard. To enter such discussions with absolutist and inflexible views devoid of context is thread crapping.

...just as expectation bias can occur with CD players, speakers and the rest.

 

[ShinOBIWAN]

...as there are in cables but this is not up for debate here. If you choose not to believe that for whatever reason then all you need to do is stay out of discussions where an OP waxes lyrical about a cable recently heard. To enter such discussions with absolutist and inflexible views devoid of context is thread crapping.

...just as expectation bias can occur with CD players, speakers and the rest.

There's differences in cables? What's are those then? The jacket colour or the plugs used on the ends maybe? I tease of course.

There's plenty of folks who are for and against cables and virtually all are equipped with your aforementioned 'context'. All have valid view points but because the audio related phenomena at work isn't documented, scientifically delineated and digestible then neither one nor the other has objective evidence to back up with assured confidence what they are saying. Some hear, some don't, try getting a group like that to agree on a universal... impossible.

Loudspeakers are very easily identifiable as better or worse because the extent of differences are huge compared to any proposed differences between cables. They're undeniable and, should things turn to more academic discussion, the science is available to explain and quantify the difference. In other words its a tangible, repeatable quantity that can measured and verified.

I'm sick of the cables threads and I personally want them gone from the main body of the forum. And please don't tell me to steer clear of them and all will be well in the world. That's like saying "Oh there's a dustbin that's been tipped on my garden" and having someone reply "Just shut your curtains then and you won't see it".

 

[demandcurve]

None of those

Continue as we are, and if someone flames people they get banned, isn't that the rule anyway? Let's enforce it.

Tony

 

[zanash]

but haven't you noticed how some people seem to be able to say anything ...and others just the mire hint of an objection are threatened with a ban or is it just me ?.

people should be entitled to there own opinions and allowed to discuss them, its the people who can't abide that other poeple have opinions that differ from there own that cause the problems....and then attempt to shout them down or discredit them that need to be removed ....

Why not ban discussion of all hifi topics that should solve the problem entirely .....

 

[Dev]

but haven't you noticed how some people seem to be able to say anything ...and others just the mire hint of an objection are threatened with a ban or is it just me ?.

What neither side seems to notice is that we get exactly the same complaints from both sides, both sides accusing us of favouring the other.

people should be entitled to there own opinions and allowed to discuss them,

They are, provided they follow the AUP, which probably needs an update in view of our recent experience.

, its the people who can't abide that other poeple have opinions that differ from there own that cause the problems....

So if a sceptic posts his/her opinion, or questions you, why does that upset you?

....and then attempt to shout them down or discredit them that need to be removed ....

IYO. Sometimes genuine questions are asked (again, by both parties) which seem to hit the nerve. One specific example is when a poster claimed an x% improvement and I asked how was this measured.

Why not ban discussion of all hifi topics that should solve the problem entirely .....

No one is forced to post here.

I'm really sad about what has becomes of ZG. Too many genuinely helpful posters have been driven away by this contant bickering and all we are left with is fingerpointing.

 

[Stereo Mic]

None of those

Continue as we are, and if someone flames people they get banned, isn't that the rule anyway? Let's enforce it.

Tony

That seems the most logical solution - the problem at the moment is people being allowed break the AUP time and time again without anything other than a post removal and a twenty fourth warning. You do need to be clear about what is allowed and what is not though. Calling something snake oil is accepted across all forums it seems. Calling someone a twat is not.

The alternatives are to have one thread - the issue with this unmoderated form of discussion is that someone is likely to get a smack in the face at Bristol or Heathrow simply because they think it's cool to call people names from behind a keyboard. Why allow such feelings to fester on ZG? Look what happened at Mana with certain members. What does it say to visitors?

Ban cable threads and you lose the covert merchants - who go away looking for more profitable pastures. With them goes a lot of the problems in my experience, but it seems unreasonable even to me to ban discussion of fringe products. A seperate, flame free, room dedicated to cables seems to work at AA, but of course sheisters are exposed and ridiculed in the main room on a daily basis and I have to say, the Americans are capable of being far more mature about such matters.

For my money, ZG is past the point of no return anyway. It needs a strong hand at the helm and someone who really wants to build it up and change it's image. Sadly so long as the moderators here are very much (understandably) part time, and the admin has very little interest in the site on a day to day basis, ZG will remain the place it is today. Good luck.

 

[larkrise]

That seems the most logical solution - the problem at the moment is people being allowed break the AUP time and time again without anything other than a post removal and a twenty fourth warning. You do need to be clear about what is allowed and what is not though. Calling something snake oil is accepted across all forums it seems. Calling someone a twat is not.

The alternatives are to have one thread - the issue with this unmoderated form of discussion is that someone is likely to get a smack in the face at Bristol or Heathrow simply because they think it's cool to call people names from behind a keyboard. Why allow such feelings to fester on ZG? Look what happened at Mana with certain members. What does it say to visitors?

Ban cable threads and you lose the covert merchants - who go away looking for more profitable pastures. With them goes a lot of the problems in my experience, but it seems unreasonable even to me to ban discussion of fringe products. A seperate, flame free, room dedicated to cables seems to work at AA, but of course sheisters are exposed and ridiculed in the main room on a daily basis and I have to say, the Americans are capable of being far more mature about such matters.

For my money, ZG is past the point of no return anyway. It needs a strong hand at the helm and someone who really wants to build it up and change it's image. Sadly so long as the moderators here are very much (understandably) part time, and the admin has very little interest in the site on a day to day basis, ZG will remain the place it is today. Good luck.

LOL! Is this irony?

Haven't you twigged the reason why many members seldom post their views anymore, including myself?

"Alas, how terrible is wisdom when it brings no profit to the man that's wise!"

 

[sq225917]

the problem is a lack of tolerance on the part of certain members who feel the need to express their views in every thread.

i see no need to post my slightly pro cable position in any anti cable thread, it's just a shame others can't do the same and keep their mouths shut.

there are plenty of people who do 'believe' in cables, and if in holding that belief they gain more enjoyment from their system then that's great for them.

just be happy that they are 'fooling' themselves, and leave them alone, and leave the people who can provide them with a means to their end to provide them with cables and cable advice.

if people stop shitting all over the threads it wouldn't be an issue.

funny how it's been real quiet on these threads this past week..

 

[Stereo Mic]

LOL! Is this irony?

Haven't you twigged the reason why many members seldom post their views anymore, including myself?

"Alas, how terrible is wisdom when it brings no profit to the man that's wise!"

Well just for once you could try being non confrontational but maybe that's difficult for you.

It's not irony and it's only a certain number of people who take it that way. The reason people aren't posting (myself included) is that the place is full of vitriol and insults. That comes down to moderation.

Explain this if you will. Let's say those of us concerned about cable sales disappear and leave ZG to get on with life. You will return to how it was about 5 months ago. Can you remember that far back? One post a day about ball bearings, beltism, or individuals promoting their home made wares. Given that almost no one bothered posting then - what makes you think that the objectivists are to blame for the lull?

 

[DavidF]

"One post a day about ball bearings"

Mike, I don't have the dosh for expensive gear, so I have to squeeze what I acn from what I have got.

If I am then (highly) impressed with the results I feel others maybe interested to try for their own gear, so I post the results. I kinda thought that was what a hobby forum was for.

A post a day?

Maybe the thing to do is not to look at that particular thread?







David

the problem is a lack of tolerance on the part of certain members who feel the need to express their views in every thread.

i see no need to post my slightly pro cable position in any anti cable thread, it's just a shame others can't do the same and keep their mouths shut.

there are plenty of people who do 'believe' in cables, and if in holding that belief they gain more enjoyment from their system then that's great for them.

just be happy that they are 'fooling' themselves, and leave them alone, and leave the people who can provide them with a means to their end to provide them with cables and cable advice.

if people stop shitting all over the threads it wouldn't be an issue.

funny how it's been real quiet on these threads this past week..

....could be....