Coloured or Neutral Sound Whats your preference

rollo said:
Have you tried bringing a cymbal into your listening room and giving it a few whacks? Surprise surprise, the shimmer and especially the decay arte very difficult to reproduce.
The reason I asked the question is that IMO neutral cannot exist. We have yet to reproduce the recording event. Once a signal passes through electronics its lost. Now neutral to our source is a bit easier but still no cigar.
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I think the bottom end of a recording is generally more fairthfull to the source than the top end (just an opinion). So a system should at least try to get that (nearly) right. Most don't. The surface area of twin 15" woofers is probably not far off the surface area of a smal kick drum (???). Remember in nature, only relatively large sources produce low frequency noise "naturally". Also, the dispersion characteristcs of the recorded/reproduced low frequency content is less important when compared to high frequencies.

Comparing that to a 1" tweeter and cymbal diameter. I know it's not that simple but you get the drift. At least a 4" beryllium mid/tweeter driving a horn may be get close in terms of output and dynamics (the dispersion would be way off compared to the original though but you can't have everything).
 
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andyoz said:
I think the bottom end of a recording is generally more fairthfull to the source than the top end (just an opinion). So a system should at least try to get that (nearly) right. Most don't. The surface are of twin 15" woofers is probably not far off the surface area of a smal kick drum (???). Remember in nature, only relatively large sources produce low frequency noise "naturally". Also, the dispersion characteristcs of the recorded/reproduced low frequency content is less important when compared to high frequencies.

Now let's compare a 1" tweeter and cymbal diameter. I know it's not that simple but you get my drift. At least a 4" beryllium mid/tweeter driving a horn may be get close in terms of output and dynamics (the dispersion would be way off compared to the original though but you can't have everything).
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Spot on Andy,
A grizzled old engineer friend said to me eons ago when referring to the then current flavour for small Linn Kans(no offense intended) type of speakers-"If yer can't play a bass guitar through them how the f*** can they say they can play bass? That made me think, and addicted to large capable, if slightly coloured speakers ever since.
 
I love to hear live classical music. Depending in which concert hall I am, the sound is somewhat different. Sometimes it has a bit of colouration sometimes other sound characteristics are slightly different. This doesn't cause me any problems and as long as these differences make me still believe, that the sound is a realistic one, I don't mind to have them when listening to my hifi system.
 
I'm with Andyoz,
Give my dynamics by the bucket load. ........ in rock (amplified) music there is no such thing as neutral. The all the players and singers have tone controls and effects units on their systems and we never know how they sounded in the studion .... so what is neutral?
 
If it doesn't get my feet tapping then it's not doing its job, so whether or not that is neutral or coloured doesn't matter.

Being a bass player I listen to drums and bass alot so if they aren't good, then the sound isn't going to be right full stop.

What Cooky says is true, and as Scotty used to say to Cap'n Kirk: "Ye canna change the laws of physics"...
 
The only way your going to hear what the artist intended is to be sat in the recording studio or the like.

So I like listening to coloured sound, but coloured in an agreeable way;-)
 
shrink said:
its impossible to establish neutral with any kind of certainty.. this isnt like photography where you can use a test card with differing colour temperatures to establish a neutral grey. Its completely subjective.
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I'm not so sure..

If a system has a perfectly flat frequency response, perfect phase accuracy, unlimited headroom and zero distortion then it will be neutral. The closer a system approaches these ideals the more neutral it will be. I'd say those criteria were completely objective.
 
Antony said:
I'm not so sure..

If a system has a perfectly flat frequency response, perfect phase accuracy, unlimited headroom and zero distortion then it will be neutral. The closer a system approaches these ideals the more neutral it will be. I'd say those criteria were completely objective.
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Yes but sitting on a chair 50ft up a pole in the middle of a windless field at a steady 70 degF in order for the others criteria to mean anything isn't objective is it?
 
I suppose to have perfect phase accuracy and flat frequency response at listening position would mean already that there are zero room effects.

Regards neutrality, I think just because it can not be obtained (at the moment) it doesn't mean we should not strive for it. We just have to know the critical areas to strive for improvement.
 
Tenson said:
I suppose to have perfect phase accuracy and flat frequency response at listening position would mean already that there are zero room effects.
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Exactly! Thank you.

Developments in digital technology is moving audio reproduction closer to the ideals of neutrality. There will be no need to sit on outside on a pole.

That said, the topic of this thread is all about subjective choice. So if you enjoy something, then that's all that matters.

I was just taking issue with the idea that neutrality is subjective.
 
Expanding the notion of 'neutrality' somewhat:)
The closest I've ever come to what I could call near as damn it neutral(absence of any colourations) was a binaural recording played through my ER4's-all it lacked was the physical experience of sound on the body but switching back to 2 channel stereo over speakers illustrated just how un-neutral(?) our conventional means of reproduction is and how far we have to go.
 
Antony said:
Developments in digital technology is moving audio reproduction closer to the ideals of neutrality. There will be no need to sit on outside on a pole.
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How close are we really getting to this though?

I just can't see it happening in a hurry. They can't even get electronic reverb anywhere near the "real" thing yet.

I don't think there will ever be a substitute for a "good" room no matter what the manufacturer's say (just an opinion :))
 
andyoz said:
How close are we really getting to this though?

I just can't see it happening in a hurry. They can't even get electronic reverb anywhere near the "real" thing yet.

I don't think there will ever be a substitute for a "good" room no matter what the manufacturer's say (just an opinion :))
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And a good opinion it is. The room is the most important yet overlooked part of the puzzle. In the right room the difference between components IMO is marginal at best.


rollo
 
Here's an example of how non-linear most PA systems for rock music are when they have been EQ'd to the sound engineers liking.:eek:

This is a freq. response plot taken at one of the better sounding medium sized venues in Dublin (L-ACOUSTICS latest top flight rig). The "hot" bottem-end and serious drop off in response after 12kHz are normal. No need for a super tweeter at home then but you better get something bigger than a 6" woofer.

FrequencyResponse-final.jpg


These should do the trick for home use :eek:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/JBL-Studio-Mo...ryZ23786QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

9c2d_1.JPG
 
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andyoz said:
Here's an example of how non-linear most PA systems for rock music are when they have been EQ'd to the sound engineers liking.:eek:

This is a freq. repsonse plot taken at one of the better sounding medium sized venues in Dublin (L-ACOUSTICS latest top flight rig). The "hot" bottem-end and serious drop off in response after 12kHz are normal. No need for a super tweeter at home then but you better get something bigger than a 6" woofer.

FrequencyResponse-final.jpg


These should do the trick for home use :eek:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/JBL-Studio-Mo...ryZ23786QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

9c2d_1.JPG
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Hey Andy, I won the auction for £361!!!!! not bad eh?
 
andyoz said:
Nice one.

Did you get a chance to inspect them before bidding.
Did you see this thread at Audio Heritage?
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=19137

They may need some work but the basics are there. Where are you going to put them? :confused:
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Well, the cabs are a bit rough and so I will be replacing them to create some TM1 copies but will do lots of research on the Lansing forum first.
A bit of digging is bringing up some interesting facts about who recorded with these particular monitors(Smiths and Clash so far;-)
 

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