Flatty's turntable bake off...

[RobHolt]

JC, I've edited your post to remove accusation - you cannot possibly have facts to support that view.

The test is perfectly genuine IMO.
Level matching is fine and does help on playback as you don't have to manually adjust, though in this case as the poll was already in process I think it should have been allowed to stand on its merits.

It is believed that TT 4 was running slow, and so speed correction has been applied in the digital domain. I wouldn't do it - if the deck has poor speed stability it should be revealed even if it is a fault - but it isn't my poll.

 

[johnjbell]

JC, I've edited your post to remove accusation - you cannot possibly have facts to support that view.

The test is perfectly genuine IMO.
Level matching is fine and does help on playback as you don't have to manually adjust, though in this case as the poll was already in process I think it should have been allowed to stand on its merits.

It is believed that TT 4 was running slow, and so speed correction has been applied in the digital domain. I wouldn't do it - if the deck has poor speed stability it should be revealed even if it is a fault - but it isn't my poll.

Well, I've just spent about half an hour having a good listen to these samples, and I'm surprised still with the degree of variation. I can hear that there are at least two decks with speed problems, particularly no.4, but the difference in detail and transients is huge also between some of them.

Going to listen some more, but at the moment prefer 2,5,7 and 8 to the other four, but all for different reasons so can't vote!

Clearly not a scientific test, because of the multiple variables, but really interesting all the same to show the distinct differences between even very fine turntable setups.

 

[UK Duty Paid]

Breaking News ...

 

[Richard Dunn]

Well wasn't that an exercise in futility!

Neither of the two sets of results seemed to compare or show similarities, it just makes me pleased I didn't bother.

I cannot believe that if it were the turntables being listened to and not these over produced artificial "bits or mince re-assembled as a cow" then everything would have been far more clear cut, especially with some more *natural* music.

Moral of the story - if you want to listen to turntables, then listen to turntables.

 

[RobHolt]

I don't see it that way Richard and I think these tests are worthwhile, though not necessarily to prove a winner from the pack.

I've long said that people massively over-state and over-hype differences, and that what passes for established fact, ie a Linn sounds like this and a Naim sounds like that - is largely rubbish.

What this tells me is that once again we have a situation where the equipment proved 'good enough' for the purpose and that when you ask people to comment or state a preference it is pretty fickle - even with TTs so on cables, dacs and amps you've got no bloody chance with those

As for the moral of the story, it isn't that simple.
Someone who hates the LP12 (for whatever reason), on seeing it playing will automatically start hearing what they expect it to be doing wrong.
Similarly, when a huge chunky idler is seen to be playing, there is a natural inclination to hear things like solidity, drive and stability - even if there isn't any actual audible evidence.

If proper controls are in place, ie you level match and are confident that the recorder is capable of revealing the differences, then this form of testing is a fine way to cut through the nonsense and focus entirely on the sonics.

 

[joel]

Many a good recording is ruined by too much HF vocal EQ and reverb.
Lots of hi-fi buffs seem to like it but its horrible IMO - sort of swishy and fizzy artificial grain added to the voice. Gets mistaken for air and detail, which it isn't.

Ultra close miking on the voice doesn't help, especially with mics that have a "tailored" response*.

The tendency to do this (and other horrors) seems to get worse with every passing year.

In my case this seems to be an age thing. My hearing is getting worse as I get older, but at the same time I'm increasingly sensitive to and intolerant of HF nastiness. Strange.

*which almost always seems to mean rising response or a lofty peak somewhere.

 

[Richard Dunn]

I don't see it that way Richard and I think these tests are worthwhile, though not necessarily to prove a winner from the pack.

I've long said that people massively over-state and over-hype differences, and that what passes for established fact, ie a Linn sounds like this and a Naim sounds like that - is largely rubbish.

What this tells me is that once again we have a situation where the equipment proved 'good enough' for the purpose and that when you ask people to comment or state a preference it is pretty fickle - even with TTs so on cables, dacs and amps you've got no bloody chance with those

As for the moral of the story, it isn't that simple.
Someone who hates the LP12 (for whatever reason), on seeing it playing will automatically start hearing what they expect it to be doing wrong.
Similarly, when a huge chunky idler is seen to be playing, there is a natural inclination to hear things like solidity, drive and stability - even if there isn't any actual audible evidence.

If proper controls are in place, ie you level match and are confident that the recorder is capable of revealing the differences, then this form of testing is a fine way to cut through the nonsense and focus entirely on the sonics.

Sorry you have it arse about face, it is not the turntables that were confusing everyone as I have proved here on two seperate bake-offs over two years, but people thinking these bits of reconstituted cow mince will do the job, quite obviously from these results they don't, blind has nothing to do with it. All blind does is make you blind, perhaps some of you will start to advocate doing them deaf as well to try and prove some daft point.

People have been trying to apply these type of controls for years like Hi-Fi Choice and other mags, do you really think they worked, nah! just added to the confusion, though they were a usefull marketing tool for the magazine to try and attempt to seem semi scientific, instead of the reality of a semi farce.

My final point is you have to give them at least a chance by giving them something at least attempting to be natural to play. That track was an over produced artificial unnatural abortion and how anyone is supposed to know how it is supposed to sound is beyond me, there was so much EQ, reverb, and other playing around on the voice and instruments it wasn't even necessarily human or played by humans

 

[BlueEyes]

I would agree with you Richard. I remember the "debate" over what tracks would be used and someone had the temerity to suggest a more natural reference point and was shot down in flames.

I was in fact invited but, inadvertently, went to the trade premises of the person concerned after traveling some distance and despite leaving both telephone calls and texts with the management and even telephoning their outside business calling system and speaking to a person who assured me my messages would be relayed didn't receive any contact until a brief and flippant text that evening "Er, that's my work address! Sorry you missed it all."

Where I come from you make sure all your guests arrive, safely, on what was a limited numbers presentation.

A 200 mile wasted round-trip was no fun and whilst the management might find the same amusing, especially, with my known criticism of the ZAP whatever set up if my presence was not wanted it would have been simply polite to tell me and I would have better used my time elsewhere.

As my Mum used to say, courtesy costs nothing but was, clearly, rather too expensive for this presentation.

However, I went to my first bake-off not so long ago and was bowled over by the kindness and fun of those person who attended and I have been invited to another at the end of this month where I expect no less fun. Fortunately, it takes all kinds. The skill is to avoid those that don't behave in a manner that one would consider a respect for others.

Incidentally, with the tantalisation of the handing down of the decision I would have thought that the presence of Simon Cowell would have been the least one would expect.

 

[jcbrum]

JC, I've edited your post to remove accusation - you cannot possibly have facts to support that view.

I can't even remember now what I said, but the post wasn't intended to be accusative, merely an observation based on what I know about.

If you remind me what I said, I'll tell you whether it was fact based. I'm not in the habit of inventing things just to cause a problem.

In fact I was supporting the view that the digital manipulation was probably not any intention to deceive, despite what anyone else might think.

JC.

 

[bottleneck]

I admire the 'blind' element of the test, and found it very informative I have to say.

The downsides were pretty huge - different phono stages, different arms, different cartridges on all different turntables.

This is only a 'downside' if you wanted to make some kind of reasoned preference based on what you heard.

Who knows if cartridge A) put on turntable C) with the arm from D) might have been your prefered combination - ? too many variables to make this something you can draw preferences from.

However as a bunch of guys having a great day out it was doubtless unsurpassed

 

[Pure Sound]

It was a very enjoyable day out.

Blue Eyes, we all had the same email with instructions and the address on it.
Why did you go to the business address? Everyone else went to the house.

I was sorry you didn't make it. It would've been nice to meet you.



With regard to the music played, there was a variety used on each deck and the opportunity therefore to compare one to another and always to Andrews LP12 which was a useful reference point. I preferred several of the decks there to the LP12 but that's my subjective opinion. As LP12's go it seemed quite a good sounding example.

For the purposes of recording each deck for the subsequent appraisal by forum users, I'd also have chosen a different piece of music but it was what it was.

 

[BlueEyes]

Pure Sound,

I was looking forward to meeting you and meeting, again, other participants I have had the pleasure of meeting before.

The confusion, initially, was not a problem as I was simply on the other side of York and after not receiving a response to texts and calls telephoned the outside business calling system and, actually, spoke to a guy who would pass on my message that I was waiting for redirection.

I, naturally, assumed that such person would contact the management as they would had a client telephoned them.

For reasons not yet explained I received no response until 8pm that evening and was disappointed to have my invitation so, briefly, dismissed without explanation after traveling so far.

I have, previously, driven to the North Pole and sometimes through one's own fault, let alone others, you can get your directions wrong what I would suggest here is the relevant issue of the courtesy of responding to an, already, invited guest.

 

[UK Duty Paid]

Blue Eyes mistakes happen, its frustrating & time wasting.

What I didn't like was the reporting of it on a forum thread & making it into some sort of joke. That would have made me furious & you have every right to be pissed off about it. Very Bad form IMO.

 

[sq225917]

Seems like such an anticlimax now the results are in.

Interesting that the one deck that surprised so much on the day didn't come out so well in the tests- the WT , but the one we all knew was the best, Pete's, did translate into votes.

Shame the LP12 took a bath... ;-)

 

[Pure Sound]

To be honest, with a busy house full of people and in an area with poor mobile reception it doesn't surprise me that you couldn't get through. I couldn't get a signal at all in the village.

What I did do & always do now is look up the address on google maps & go to streetview to get a picture of what to expect. I knew what Andrews road looked like & the colour of his garage door before I even started out on the 365 mile journey.

 

[johnfromnorwich]

Well despite the various limitations it was still a worthwhile exercise. It was probably better to see it as a comparison of various deck/arm/cart combos. Multivariate if you like. None of this was hidden on the day and the huge price discrepancies between the carts in particular was all in the mix when we were listening. Best of all, there's no way I'd ever had the opportunity to hear this kind of range of TTs in one place. I also learned two important things about my own deck: 1) Road vibration on a 200 mile car journey is enough to move the internal speed-tuning pot significantly. 2) The suspension on a Gyro needs to be left at least overnight before it's stable enough to set-up.

I still want an Idler

 

[BlueEyes]

Blue Eyes mistakes happen, its frustrating & time wasting.

What I didn't like was the reporting of it on a forum thread & making it into some sort of joke. That would have made me furious & you have every right to be pissed off about it. Very Bad form IMO.

Quite.

Pure Sound, the issue was that I had gone to the wrong place. As UK says these things happen.

What has still to be explained is why after I contacted the manangement's out of hours call number and spoke to the people concerned and was informed that they would contact the management that I received no response. Presumably, as such is a business arrangement provision is made for contact at the management irrespective of mobile reception?

No matter, you may reach your own conclusions as to what happened and your right UK although I would, respectfully, suggest that such says more about the persons concerned than it could ever say about me and I make no apology, something I have yet to receive, for posting this matter in order that such never happens to anyone else.

PS - I meant the Arctic Circle not the North Pole and I am just glad that those I relied upon at that time were rather more concerned as to ensuring I got there.

 

[RobHolt]

Sorry you have it arse about face, it is not the turntables that were confusing everyone as I have proved here on two seperate bake-offs over two years, but people thinking these bits of reconstituted cow mince will do the job, quite obviously from these results they don't, blind has nothing to do with it. All blind does is make you blind, perhaps some of you will start to advocate doing them deaf as well to try and prove some daft point.

it is possible do demonstrate in a about one minute, on any amplifier with a tape loop, that a half decent digital encode/decode is about as far from reconstructed cow mince as you can get. You are conveniently forgetting that people heard and described differences in the recordings. The process you object to is using the same technology you enjoyed and your digital bake-off, but in this case we have the benefits of a far more direct process, so better in fact.

I demonstrate this often to debunk the myth and anyone is welcome to come and listen.

The process at this bake-off seemed perfectly fine to me, it just didn't need two polls to complicate matters.

 

[flatpopely]

I would agree with you Richard. I remember the "debate" over what tracks would be used and someone had the temerity to suggest a more natural reference point and was shot down in flames.

I was in fact invited but, inadvertently, went to the trade premises of the person concerned after traveling some distance and despite leaving both telephone calls and texts with the management and even telephoning their outside business calling system and speaking to a person who assured me my messages would be relayed didn't receive any contact until a brief and flippant text that evening "Er, that's my work address! Sorry you missed it all."

Where I come from you make sure all your guests arrive, safely, on what was a limited numbers presentation.

A 200 mile wasted round-trip was no fun and whilst the management might find the same amusing, especially, with my known criticism of the ZAP whatever set up if my presence was not wanted it would have been simply polite to tell me and I would have better used my time elsewhere.

As my Mum used to say, courtesy costs nothing but was, clearly, rather too expensive for this presentation.

However, I went to my first bake-off not so long ago and was bowled over by the kindness and fun of those person who attended and I have been invited to another at the end of this month where I expect no less fun. Fortunately, it takes all kinds. The skill is to avoid those that don't behave in a manner that one would consider a respect for others.

Incidentally, with the tantalisation of the handing down of the decision I would have thought that the presence of Simon Cowell would have been the least one would expect.

BlueEyes.

Sorry you did not make and and I apologise for not getting back to you but mobile voicemail and ergo emails sometimes don't make it through for hours due to crap recepeption.

I have double checked and I did send you the email with the agenda that had both the bake off address and my home phone number, why did you not phone it when you could not get through?

I am sorry it was a wasted journey but you cant blame me, you had the info but chose not to read/use it.

I'll say no more on ZG.

Andrew.

 

[BlueEyes]

BlueEyes.

Sorry you did not make and and I apologise for not getting back to you but mobile voicemail and ergo emails sometimes don't make it through for hours due to crap recepeption.

I have double checked and I did send you the email with the agenda that had both the bake off address and my home phone number, why did you not phone it when you could not get through?

I am sorry it was a wasted journey but you cant blame me, you had the info but chose not to read/use it.

I'll say no more on ZG.

Andrew.

Andrew,

I left messages on both your mobile and landline.

I have since been told that your mobile rang with a message whilst you were cooking, although I unreservedly withdraw such comment if you say such was not the case, although it does suggest you have a mobile signal and you have still not explained whether your out of hours business agency contacted you with my message?

That's the end of the matter as far as I am concerned and UK will confirm, with regard to his objective comment, that we do not know each other nor have we ever been in contact, however, like other forum members I look forward to making his acqaintance at future gatherings as I have with members in the past and will do, again, shortly.