Hearing is Believing

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Mescalito

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Hi,

Did anyone else watch "Horizon" on BBC2 last night? Fascinating stuff.

It was about how interelated all our senses are.

It can be summarised by paraphrasing a comment made by one of the psychologists appearing on the programme.

"Hearing is believing.....we hear what we believe".

Chris
 
I thought it was all a bit weak tbh, telling me stuff I'd learnt in biology O-level 24 years ago, so only partially watched it.

Common sense, as it were.

Echo location man was quite cool though, perhaps someone ought to invite him to some of your blind listening tests, as I doubt you'll find a more sensitive/finely tuned pair of ears.
 
Richard Dunn said:
Which is why blind testing can be such a problem for newbies to the process.
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Hi, Richard,

Actually, the exact opposite of your assertion is true. The whole point is that visual cues which allow confirmation bias distort our perception, and it is not something we can factor out in a sighted test. Hence, in order for the audition to be free of confirmation bias, the audition should be carried out blind.

Chris
 
Having not seen the program, are they basically saying "If you think there is a difference between two things, you will hear a difference between them"?

Makes a fair amount of sense to me tbh, we see placebo level effects all over the place based purely on belief alone.
 
titian said:
Great when a whole subject can be summarised in one short sentence! :D
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Well, Titian, in this particular case, it really can. And you can substitute "see, smell, taste and feel" into the statement and it remains true.

The whole thrust of the program was "don't trust your perception, it is almost certailny wrong"

Chris
 
TheCherub said:
Having not seen the program, are they basically saying "If you think there is a difference between two things, you will hear a difference between them"?

Makes a fair amount of sense to me tbh, we see placebo level effects all over the place based purely on belief alone.
Click to expand...

Yup, that's a pretty good summary. We hear/see/smell/taste/feel what we expect to hear/see/smell/taste/feel.

Chris
 
Mescalito said:
Hi, Richard,

Actually, the exact opposite of your assertion is true. The whole point is that visual cues which allow confirmation bias distort our perception, and it is not something we can factor out in a sighted test. Hence, in order for the audition to be free of confirmation bias, the audition should be carried out blind.

Chris
Click to expand...

How many organised blind test have you done?
 
Mescalito said:
Yup, that's a pretty good summary. We hear/see/smell/taste/feel what we expect to hear/see/smell/taste/feel.

Chris
Click to expand...

Then why bother with good hi-fi, just go and buy a Bose wave radio and expect it to sound good, problem solved, and it keeps your nonsense away from us in the process.
 
Mescalito said:
Well, Titian, in this particular case, it really can. And you can substitute "see, smell, taste and feel" into the statement and it remains true.

The whole thrust of the program was "don't trust your perception, it is almost certailny wrong"

Chris
Click to expand...

So when I go for a hearing test to the doc, I'm just hearing what I believe. When they press the keyboard to send the frequency 1000Hz I hear that frequency because I believe it? :rolleyes:

When I go to a concert and I have read they will play the 4th of Beethoven (so I believe it) and they play something else, I still hear the 4th of Beethoven. :D
 
Richard Dunn said:
Then why bother with good hi-fi, just go and buy a Bose wave radio and expect it to sound good, problem solved, and it keeps your nonsense away from us in the process.
Click to expand...

Richard, calm down FFS.

The evidence in this field is indisputable & undeniable. You, me, everyone, no matter how experienced, will be fooled by our brains. It is a function of being human. Why are you getting so wound up?

All this does is explain why people honestly believe in things which defy all logic and evidence. And it is so bloody simple to factor out a large number of influences by simply auditioning blind.

It also explains why it is so easy for the foo-merchants to make a living.

It doesn't have to be a full blown statistically valid double blind. All that is required is that the listener does not know which of the bits of kit being auditioned is in the chain.

Regarding my experience of blind testing, maybe 15 to 20 occasions over the last 30 years. None of them could be described as rigorous, so could not form the basis of a scientific paper.

Chris
 
Mescalito said:
Hi,

Did anyone else watch "Horizon" on BBC2 last night? Fascinating stuff.

It was about how interelated all our senses are.

It can be summarised by paraphrasing a comment made by one of the psychologists appearing on the programme.

"Hearing is believing.....we hear what we believe".

Chris
Click to expand...

Watching it now on iPlayer, fascinating stuff.


You should watch it Richard, you might learn something.
 
titian said:
So when I go for a hearing test to the doc, I'm just hearing what I believe. When they press the keyboard to send the frequency 1000Hz I hear that frequency because I believe it? :rolleyes:

When I go to a concert and I have read they will play the 4th of Beethoven (so I believe it) and they play something else, I still hear the 4th of Beethoven. :D
Click to expand...

Titian,

Don't take my word for it. Watch the program. Especially the section devoted to (I think) the McGurk phenomenon. Do some research.

Whether you agree with it or like it, you hear what you believe you will hear. Especially if you have just spent a large amount of money chasing an improvement.

Regarding your query re the hearing test, I would imagine it would be fairly simple to set up a situation where you could be fooled into hearing something that was not there.

Your second example is invalid since knowledge of what Beethoven's 4th sounds like is not actually an auditory function. It is a cognitive function.

Chris

Chris
 
Richard Dunn said:
Then why bother with good hi-fi, just go and buy a Bose wave radio and expect it to sound good, problem solved, and it keeps your nonsense away from us in the process.
Click to expand...

Isn't that exactly what most people do? They buy Bose, think it's the best sound possible and enjoy it as such?

When I was about 10 I first heard Bose and thought it sounded great. It was better than the other cheapo system and if I could have owned it I'd have probably enjoyed it greatly.
 
Mescalito said:
Richard, calm down FFS.

The evidence in this field is indisputable & undeniable. You, me, everyone, no matter how experienced, will be fooled by our brains. It is a function of being human. Why are you getting so wound up?

All this does is explain why people honestly believe in things which defy all logic and evidence. And it is so bloody simple to factor out a large number of influences by simply auditioning blind.

It also explains why it is so easy for the foo-merchants to make a living.

It doesn't have to be a full blown statistically valid double blind. All that is required is that the listener does not know which of the bits of kit being auditioned is in the chain.

Regarding my experience of blind testing, maybe 15 to 20 occasions over the last 30 years. None of them could be described as rigorous, so could not form the basis of a scientific paper.

Chris
Click to expand...

So do you always listen to your system blind to make sure your enjoyment is not an illusion :rolleyes:
 
I must confess I've never cared all that much whether what I was hearing was the result of physics or perception.

As far as I'm concerned, I'm paying a given amount of money for a given improvement in sound. If that's entirely 'in my head' I still get the result I want either way.

I am aware this may make me look like an idiot.
 
Basil said:
Watching it now on iPlayer, fascinating stuff.


You should watch it Richard, you might learn something.
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I do not deny psychological effects it is all part of the learning process, and one of the reasons we have opposing opinions and make different choices. Now the difference is you think that is bad and I think it is good. It happens in all emotive choice situations through all aspects of human behaviour - it is normal!!! it is part of why we are individuals, if we didn't have it we would just be computers.

It is only bad in extremis when people really are self deluded, and that is a very small number of nutters, interestingly about the same number of nutters who completely reject any form of subjective judgement.

If our senses always deluded us then natural selection would have cured it, it hasn't so I can only presume what we have is normal.
 
Tenson said:
Isn't that exactly what most people do? They buy Bose, think it's the best sound possible and enjoy it as such?

When I was about 10 I first heard Bose and thought it sounded great. It was better than the other cheapo system and if I could have owned it I'd have probably enjoyed it greatly.
Click to expand...

My point is that that is fine (for them), so why should people with that level of understanding populate hi-fi forums and irritate us (the pursuers of excellence).
 

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