Is their much hope for future graduates?

[amazingtrade]

I am just about to go into my second year at uni, and I want to try and do a work placement year in my 3rd year hence it will be four year course if I get a work placement.

I am already £5000 in debt (though my parents will owe back a lot of this money)

There are more and more graduates each year, hence having a degree is starting to mean less than it did 30 years ago. This means to stand out you have to do a masters or Phd resulting in further debt.

My dad for example did a 2 year course after his A levels, now to do the same course you need a degree.

I want to go into web development of some kind, I get conflicting reports that the I.T industry is short of skilled workers, yet I also read that more and more I.T firms are laying staff off. This confuses me some what.

I left school in 1999, and have been doing marketing stuff for my dads small company, (I deliver leaflets for him, designed them, produced and maintain the website etc). I will have server side programming skills by this time next year, however won't most people by then in the I.T industry?

I am very worried that I am going into an over subscribed industry with two many graduates applying for jobs. Can anybody tell me if this is the case? My uncle tells me not to worry as he earns £60k a year now directly because of his degree (he went to the same uni as me) however I feel things have changed.

I don't particuarly want to be rich, but I would like to think by the time I am 30 I could afford a £150k house of todays money and have money for a decent £3000k ish HIFI. The car is not important since I hate driving

 

[HenryT]

AT,

The most important thing IMO that an employer is looking for is that you can "hit the ground" running.

A degree is a good start, but like you said, more and more people have them these days. Also, the IT job market wasn't quite the niche place it once was a decade ago, more and more people have the skills already because computers and the related IT skills like web page construction and programming are more commonly taught at school as part of the general cirriculam than they used to be. So it's a case of making yourself stand out from the crowd. Gaining further post graduate qualifications is not necessarily the way to go IMO, there are a few jobs out there where you'd be looked upon more favourably by a perspective employer but not IT (then again certain companies only invite your for an interview if you're an Oxbridge grad ).

Doing a work placement during your year out is probably the most useful thing you can do as part of your degree course. I know for me it was and it helped me to find and get a job faster after graduation - I graudated in '97. The thing is, your work placement employer might even be so impressed with you after your placement is over that they agree to give you a job after your final year.

One way of proving you can hit the ground running is to give proof of projects you've done in your own spare time that can be related to the job your trying to get - you've mentioned the web page work you've done above so that is one possible thing that could make you stand out from your peers.

The laying off and downsizing of the IT workforce is I think on the whole to do with the contracting sector. Contract work is financially more lucrative and use to be more pentiful, so I'd say that permanent IT jobs are still out there for the taking. Whatever permanet means, as the longest I've stayed in one job is my current job - 2 years. Most people I've known who work in IT rarely stay longer than 3 or 4 years (which is a very long time IME) with a company now a days.

The skill shortage is IME down to the attitudes of IT employers back in the 90s, where the philosophy was to only hire in people who had the relevant practical skill there and then, but not to bother with on going traning in new skills for current employees due to project deadlines and workload pressures. A stance which I believe has to the current situation and which the employers are firmly to blame. The only way is to brush up your skills and keep abreast of the latest developments in your particular area(s) of expertise by spending your spare time reading the relevant journals, websites or text books - somethng which I've never been keen on doing since leaving university as I like to keep work totally seperate from my home/leasure time (but if I were in a job which was connected to my hobby, which isn't IT, then that would be a different scenario ).

 

[nsherin]

AT, mate, I sympathise fully. I'm in a similar boat to you. I graduated last summer (July 2003) with a 3rd Class (pass degree).

Things I've noticed are that the graduate schemes want those with Honours degrees (i.e. 2.1 or above). Other jobs seem to want 4 to 5 years in experience.

Not being particularly academic and finding studies difficult, I'm pretty damn pleased with what I managed to achieve, yet find it difficult to find any decent job.

I started freelance consulting to home users and small businesses at the age of 16 providing PC support and have worked for a dot com company for two summers when my parents were in Hong Kong. Yet, I cannot seem to find anything suitable.

I'm currently working for local government (Portsmouth City Council) on £14.196 a year, doing a job that mainly seems to be data entry and am starting to rapidly loose enthusiasm for the job. I took this position up in May last year, so combined work/study during my final year. As a graduate, plus my experience and skills. I just feel I'm worth more

Being taxed by Blair and his merry men to the the hilt doesn't help much, either

Bloody hard work, but with the state of the IT market, goodness knows what would have happened if I'd not taken this up. If it weren't for this job, plus the generiousity of my parents, I'd be selling the Big Issue under the local railway bridge.

Heck, it took my sister 3 months to find a job (she's doing telemarketing with Yellow Pages) and she has a 2.1 in English. I felt sorry for her when she couldn't find work. The future doesn't seem bright.

Even considering overseas, they want 4 to 5 years experience, so for me, that's a no go at the moment. It just seems impossible for those that want to gain a career in a decent, legal way, like yourself or myself.

I know exactly how you feel mate - I'm in that position myself. The only thing that helps at the moment for me is to spin the tunes and keep supping the beer, but as we all know, hifi, beer and music = big money sink

 

[PBirkett]

Originally posted by HenryT
The laying off and downsizing of the IT workforce is I think on the whole to do with the contracting sector. Contract work is financially more lucrative and use to be more pentiful, so I'd say that permanent IT jobs are still out there for the taking. Whatever permanet means, as the longest I've stayed in one job is my current job - 2 years. Most people I've known who work in IT rarely stay longer than 3 or 4 years (which is a very long time IME) with a company now a days.

You are right, but up here in the Northern wastelands it seems that people are desperate to hang on to the permanent jobs up here. A few of my mates are after a change and its looking likely they'll have to move down south, theres no jobs up here in comparison to dahn sarf.

Right, I'm off to shovel some more coal...

 

[batfink]

Originally posted by PBirkett
You are right, but up here in the Northern wastelands it seems that people are desperate to hang on to the permanent jobs up here. A few of my mates are after a change and its looking likely they'll have to move down south, theres no jobs up here in comparison to dahn sarf.

Right, I'm off to shovel some more coal...

You're right there. It took me a year to find a job after graduation (not proud of it, but I spent a year on the dole). And I've got a 2:1 honours degree.

I lived in the northern wastelands, but there is just no work up there. I spent most of my time travelling dahn sarf for job interviews. It all changed when my girlfriend got a job at Heathrow. I moved down with her and in a matter of weeks I had a job with very good career prospects and it's something I enjoy doing.

 

[Graham C]

Big IT companies [Cisco, HP, CGEY etc] are definitely laying off. Their main sales pitch was to try and convince smaller organisations that it wasn't worth the hassle running IT themselves. I think time has proved this wrong, and companies will go back to looking after their own IT. If you are aiming for medium companies/council jobs as IT admin, I'm sure there are jobs but probably more workers chasing.
There will always be skills shortages in IT until they stop dicking around and settle down on software and hardware platforms. There is also a surplus of IT workers [grad or otherwise]. Since the shortages change 3 times a year depending on the latest fashion in IT, you might as well not try to guess ahead. 4 years ago they wanted programmers out of retirement for 30 year old mainframe platforms...

I think Henry is right about placement years. At least you are paid[?] and it is the only way to be different at the dreaded interviews [even if you just spin a yarn about what your experience was]

 

[cookiemonster]

Is there anyone who doesn't have a degree about this place?

We should start a rejects club. :MILD:

Good luck in your studies AT. Don't worry too much You should try getting a job without a degree

 

[themadhippy]

degree? aint got one of them,but i have been to most of the uni's in the u.k .Acording to the news if your after a decent I.T job nowerdays you may have to consider moving to india

 

[julian2002]

nope, no (apparently) useless bit of paper, wasted life regurgitating someone else's opinion or crippling debt here either. i do feel i missed out on the cheep drinks and meaningless sex though.

cheers

julian

 

[cookiemonster]

Originally posted by julian2002
nope, no (apparently) useless bit of paper, wasted life regurgitating someone else's opinion or crippling debt here either. i do feel i missed out on the cheep drinks and meaningless sex though.

cheers

julian

:JPS: :JPS:

regurgitating

Ahhh.....the education system!

 

[amazingtrade]

I don't feel it will ever be wasted because I have learn't a lot and I am only going into the 2nd year, I've learn't so much other than I.T/computing too which should open up my career prospect for other jobs.

I just hope I can even get a work placement though otherwise I am truly on the scrap head. The only experience I have is the marketing stuff I do for my dad and the fact I worked for a computer building firm for two weeks before leaving because of the way I was treated.

Somebody mentioned about a portfolio, because of my course as a lot of practical elements when I get my degree I will be able to show that I have developed an e-commerce site. a forum that I programmed mysel, multimedia, animation and loads of other stuff. So I guess this gives me an extra incentive to work hard in the next few years as well.

 

[domfjbrown]

Originally posted by julian2002
i do feel i missed out on the cheep drinks and meaningless sex though.

The meaningless sex passed me by at Uni, but I got a lot of rock'n'roll and a bit of drugs...

I only got a Third as well (but it was honours) - on a completely banal computer science/cybernetics course from a well known British Uni (not saying which one, but the cybernetics bit will give it away). Basically a bums on seats excercise to get cash - blatant lies about the ammount of maths involved so I struggled heinously, but it was a joint degree in (at the time) a top-six Uni, so is probably equivalent to many uni's 2:1s...

I want to do another one (Open University) to prove I'm not thick. I could have got a 2:1 on the right course...

Still paying the debt off by the way...

 

[amazingtrade]

I think the fact you managed to get into a top 6 uni prooves you are not thick. You must have got good A levels to able to do that.

I've just read this in the Times Good Unviersity Guide so I feel a little bit better now

Salford produces graduates who are sought after by employers. This year's 4% unemployment rate is among the lowest in the UK and half the level recorded last year. Two-thirds of Salford's full-time undergraduate courses involve work experience, often a year's placement as part of a four-year sandwich course.

Even if I do end up in some support desk job hopefully the fact I have will have a degree will make it easier to get promotion in a few years time. If the worst comes to the worst I can always do what my dad did and set up my own business.

 

[The Devil]

The problem of graduate unemployment has been greatly exacerbated by this government when they decided, for some reason, that 50% of the population should go to University.

The 'A' level boards seem to be complicit in this policy, and have devalued the exams to the point where no-one takes A grades seriously any more.

 

[mr cat]

yeah, the IT job market now is dire - despite what is says in the IT trade press about the shortage of skills...about 4 years ago if you read computer weekly you'd see about 100 pages of jobs (computing was about the same), but is computing now, you'll see about 5 pages...I'm, lucky, despite only doing an HND, I managed to get a placement out in germany working for IBM global services, this enabled me to get a job within 2 weeks of finishing Uni (1998)...I don't think I'd be as lucky now...I'm still paying off my flamin' student loan too!

the way I saw it - I knew I was (largely) competing with the other graduates on my course, thus, I had to make myself more marjetable than them, so, I became course rep (which didn't involve a great deal), and managed to get one of the best placements...make yourself stand out...

 

[tones]

I go along with Bub on this one. My girls are in the (murderously hard) Swiss school system, where less than 20% make it to do the Matura (the Swiss equivalent of A Level) and the failure rate in university is up to 50%.

At one point, I got my brother to send an A level maths book over, to help my elder daughter. Problem was, the problems were of a standard that my younger daughter had already done!

The same is true in Oz for the same reason - tertiary education and a bit of paper are musts. I once checked their Chemistry paper on the Web out of interest and thought I'd strayed into the O level paper by mistake!

 

[mick parry]

Chaps

I left school without a single qualification in 1964 and there was nothing unusual in that. Some one with 4 O Levels was well above average.

Today, A levels re worthless because the standards have been dropping. I am not saying that they are easy but they are easier than they used to be.

The same applies to a degree. The BA's, in particular, are just to easy these days and it is no wonder they are not regarded as they used to be.

The truth is that possession of a degree is not the achievement it used to be. It has become devalued.


Regards

Mick

 

[julian2002]

as someone who has been on the other side of the interview table, a degree is just a way of filtering out the cv's. you interview the ones with a good degree first, then the ones with a worse degree, then those with no degree.
of course if degree bod has 2 years experience and non degree bod has 10 years experience you try the 10 years experience guy first.
cheers


julian

 

[amazingtrade]

I don't think A levels standards have dropped, the media are very very clever at manipulating the stastiics.

What is happening is that the not so bright students are getting dropped out of the system earlier than they used to.

For example now with AS levels. you must pass the AS levles before going onto A2, many students fail AS completly and never go onto A2. A2 is only slightly harder than AS, so all the students who pass at A2 would have got good grades at AS to be on A2 in the first place. Its only the results for A2 which are recorded on the A level league tables.

Also the way in which A levels are now tuaght is different to how it was in the 60's. Certain aspects of the sylabus have changed which gives another oppurtunity for the media to mock, but whats the point on having out dated things which you have to learn?

My dad cannnot understand any of my sisters A level maths work even though my dad did A level maths himself (though to be fair he did fail it).

It probably is easier to get a good A level these days because of the reasons above, but there are so many people out there who would not be able to cope with the high standards of A levels even today.

I can't really comment on if degree's have become easier but its the employee's that set the standard for degrees. Last year for example I had to write a 12,000 word report, and that was just for a module woth 1/12 of my first year, and my first year mark dosn't even count towards my final grade. I have also been told it gets much harder this year as well because of all the server side stuff I will have to do.

I think the main reason it has become devalued is simply because more and more people can afford to go to university these days so much more people have degree's.

 

[The Devil]

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that A levels are easier than they were twenty years ago. An A grade used to be confined to the top 10% of entrants, now that figure has doubled since the cap was removed in 1982.

I have been teaching medical undergraduates for about 15 years and the standard is falling.

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