London Halloween Bake-off Show

RobHolt said:
Richard, on the basis that what you have posted about Tony and his actions toward you on Subjectivist, and on here previously, I think this can run.
I know Tony well enough to understand that what you are posting about him is utterly wrong, and I had a front row seat as a pfm moderator witnessing Tony do everything possible to fight calls for your banning.

If you are going to run threads picking fights with other forums and their owners/moderators don't be surprised when they bite back.

As I said tonight on Subjectivist, I'd recommend mending few bridges, perhaps starting with an apology to Tony.
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Rob as I said to you before this is about two things. The original one I feel that Tony acted honourably and correctly and have said so all along, it is the motives of the people badgering him who should be questioned not him, the biased moderation in those days was largely from the mods not Tony. This matter is something completely different as I explained to you, all I can do is copy my points across from Subjectivist if you want it to run here. (I will edit out the bit about flatty so you don't have to remove it)

I would very happily mend bridges and I fully understand what went on in the past and I have thanked him for it in the past. This is something completely different and if you tell me it is not biased then we live on different planets. There were two trade threads at PFM that are in this argument. <moderated - mention of banned member>
Now the second thread in this argument is mine where I was discussing the on going design of the new nva Cube speakers. This thread was subject to so much criticism and rudeness it was almost funny, but I had got sort of used to it there, but in the end the shear hypocrisy especially as most of the insults had come from <moderated - mention of banned member> I thought it was time to make a point. So I asked Tony to treat me the same as everyone else and remove the insults from my thread as well. The result is I was told I didn't deserve them being removed, that I deserved to be insulted, and that the thread would be removed completely and I would be banned from the forum. Now if that could be seen in any other way than biased moderation, as I say you live on another planet. PLUS I was told that people making insults to me was my fault not the fault of the people making the insults as I attracted them, so it was *easier* to remove me than use normal honest justice, and I was told he couldn't care less about justice or who was right he just wanted to boot me off for an easy life.

EDIT your moderation has just completely destroyed this post, it now make no sense. How can you compare two things if one of them is removed or cannot be mentioned??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

All I can say to members is that if you wish to understand what happened then go to http://thehifisubjectivist.com/19/5001/page=5/_subject_ 7th post from the bottom.
 
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Richard, whatever the history, and I hadn't followed the Linn or Cube threads at all, you yourself admit that you are hard work for any forum owner to manage.
But they shouldn't have to manage you and the constant rows get tiresome for the admin and mods, not to mention many of the members.

You need to meet them half way.
If you are a magnet for conflict then examine why that is the case and consider a change of behaviour. No other forum member, bar one, causes this amount of negative reaction on forums. So there are two options. Change behaviour enough that forums are willing to accommodate you, or do nothing and things will never change - arguments will continue to rage and forums will boot you, and any events you might wish to organise.

Constantly going over who said what to who and when isn't resolving the problem.
Change of behaviour is the only solution. If you change yours, others will react differently towards you. Given the history it might take some time but you should seriously consider it IMO.
 
RobHolt said:
Richard, whatever the history, and I hadn't followed the Linn or Cube threads at all, you yourself admit that you are hard work for any forum owner to manage.
But they shouldn't have to manage you and the constant rows get tiresome for the admin and mods, not to mention many of the members.

You need to meet them half way.
If you are a magnet for conflict then examine why that is the case and consider a change of behaviour. No other forum member, bar one, causes this amount of negative reaction on forums. So there are two options. Change behaviour enough that forums are willing to accommodate you, or do nothing and things will never change - arguments will continue to rage and forums will boot you, and any events you might wish to organise.

Constantly going over who said what to who and when isn't resolving the problem.
Change of behaviour is the only solution. If you change yours, others will react differently towards you. Given the history it might take some time but you should seriously consider it IMO.
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This is ridiculous, you are just responding the same as Tony, **it is not the person who is insulted who is at fault, it is the person making the insults** this is normality and natural justice and no amount of twisting of facts or excuses changes that normality into abnormality, unless you want to make excuses for someone or their actions. If he cannot be bothered to do his job as admin and head moderator at PFM he should give it to someone else.

Also I am discussing this because you said it *should* be discussed, so now that my points are unanswerable, and show his obvious biased moderation, you say it is a waste of time me discussing them :rolleyes: and I should just roll over and wave my feet in the air.

Anyway you are personal friend of Tony so you have your own bias. I thought at one stage I was becoming a friend of his as well, until this happened - for FFF sake I was just asking him to do his job, nothing more. But it seems the forum is just a scam a tool to attract people to his record and CD shop, because basically that is what he told me, and that he thought the argument surrounding me were effecting his business. well If that is case then it is time to separate the forum from the business, otherwise it can never be seen as an independent voice in the industry, it will always have a bias against frank and honest discussion, AND YET insult and personal attacks are allowed and in some cases perpetrated by admin and mods as with the AVi saga.

I know perfectly well I am Marmite, but this Marmite is worth the taste as you get more honest and *true* facts about this industry and its dirty dealing and crooked characters, and forceful and experienced discussion of all subjects audio than from just about anywhere else, and that is what forums *should* be about, not people traps for a shop. As far as I am concerned my assets grossly outweigh my faults. It is only people threatened by this truth or whose egos are deflated by being corrected, or just plain rude nasty bas****** like SQ that want it different.
 
- you aren't listening

- you are wrong

- you are destroying a good thread (actually you've already wrecked it with negativity)

Also I am discussing this because you said it *should* be discussed
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Could be discussed - you have the option not to do so and not to inflame things further.
 
RobHolt said:
- you aren't listening

- you are wrong

- you are destroying a good thread (actually you've already wrecked it with negativity)



Could be discussed - you have the option not to do so and not to inflame things further.
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Again one sided, there are always two sides to these problems and I have been inflamed by his actions and words and this is the result and the response. I will compromise with anyone, I will be friends with anyone, I will kiss :( and make up with 99% of people. But something I will never do is roll over waving my legs in the air and whine like a puppy, it is not in my nature, I am a fighter.

Anyway back to the thread, and now you see why you should take over the running of the event. I will just help and book things from the background.
 
Richard, you are wrong IMHO.

Rob is doing what friends do which is try to help.

You may not want to hear what he is saying but true friends are honest with one another and will tell the truth as they see it and not just what you want to hear.
 
jonesi said:
Richard, you are wrong IMHO.

Rob is doing what friends do which is try to help.

You may not want to hear what he is saying but true friends are honest with one another and will tell the truth as they see it and not just what you want to hear.
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And just because you have a view doesn't mean I have to agree with it, and I don't, but thanks for it anyway.
 
Richard Dunn said:
And just because you have a view doesn't mean I have to agree with it, and I don't, but thanks for it anyway.
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You're welcome Richard.

Back on topic how can we make it better next year? I suggest the following:

Ticket sales in advance.

A more structured approach with fixed time slots published in advance so that people know whats going on and can plan their day. (I think Lindsayt may have already suggested this.)

More publicity.
 
Richard as ever you are the saint in all this.

The speaker thread went west, much like your amplifier case work thread because you are simply unwilling to correct inaccuracies in your posts. Whenever someone points out to you that something is not as you have said it is relating to some objective piece of science fact you go bat shit mental and throw all of your toys out of the pram. The thread then descends into a cyclical back biting session with you playing the victim card.

In these cases all you had to do was say.

1. I accept I was mistaken about the stiffness of acrylic.
2. I accept that my cases are made out of a plastic that shares no physical properties with glass and that Plexiglas is no more than trade name not an indication of crystal like properties.

Had you have done so, i for one wouldn't have chased it any further. But when you dig your heels in, then why shouldn't I- after all the forums are a place for science fact- not science fiction.

Despite what you obviously think, i couldn't give a rats ass about you. I bear no grudge towards you and have no reason to do so. Others, obviously do, and will hitch their waggon to any thread where you are under critique.

Had you not mentioned the speaker thread i wouldn't even be posting on here, but feel it necessary to support my case as i fear it may be under criticism by association.

I actually like you, all the more because your viewpoint is often strongly antipathetic towards my own. I'd be more than willing to help you out with any aspect of your product presentation and marketing should you ever require it- as I did with Keith from Purite this week by hand translating and laying out in English a German magazine translation for him utterly free of charge- even though it took about 6 hours of my time, and despite the fact that i also hold antipathetic views to him on some of his products and we clash about then online occasionally.

You are as they say- your own worst enemy. I hope you and the other forum owners are able to work out a truce and that you and 'him' grow up enough to not feel the need to ever mention each other or cross post on each others threads.
 
You're welcome Richard.

Back on topic how can we make it better next year? I suggest the following:

Ticket sales in advance.

Complicated, probably it should be both

A more structured approach with fixed time slots published in advance so that people know whats going on and can plan their day. (I think Lindsayt may have already suggested this.)

I don't think this is workable as you don't know what is coming. It is compromise I know and people will miss things, but this is all about flavour, if you want specific then ask in the room.

More publicity

Well I tried but I was blocked and refuse at WW until Docfoster tried a thread a few days before the show and it didn't get pulled. I was told by the WW owner any thread about the show would be pulled. It can only be promoted on forums no magazine would promote it - too much of a threat to their status quo

Another suggestion from AoS was to make it two days, well at that hotel that would be £3000 as I got a special rate because it was Sunday and they hardly ever let that wing on a Sunday as it is a business meeting and conference wing. So not on you would need over 300 people guaranteed.
 
It must have been someone else that suggested fixed time slots.

Fixed time slots wouldn't be my style of running an event like this.

I prefer flexibility as one never knows what kit will turn up, when it will turn up and how it will sound on the day. It's nice to be able to give the better sounding items a longer slot than the items that aren't sounding so good. It's nice to be able to satisfy specific requests from visitors to hear specific items or pieces of music.


As I mentioned on the Wigwam, from the visitors point of view I think that the show was a great success. From a financial point of view for Richard Dunn it was a £500 loss.

In order for a similar event to take place in the future one or more of the following would need to happen:

1 a cheaper venue found

2 more people to turn up

3 a higher entrance fee charged

4 trade sponsorship or a philanthropist to subsidise the cost (again)
 
I think we have to get some small trade sponsors on board.
In exchange they get their kit at the event and can join the non trade room bosses - though definitely not control the rooms or show agenda.

This avoids the typical show regime of one manufacturer selling from their room and brings a number of positives. It gets more kit to the event, brings in some cash, makes promotion more likely across a wider platform and brings some interesting character to the event. In no way should it dilute the main thrust of the event which is allowing people to exchange equipment, mix n match and have a fun and informative day out.

It would be better over two days but as Richard points out the cost increases considerably.
At this stage in the event lifecycle it will also split turnout over the two days - risky for such a new event IMO. Once we reach show three or four and the thing builds up a following (if it does) then two days becomes an option in terms of numbers and cost.
 
RobHolt said:
I think we have to get some small trade sponsors on board.
In exchange they get their kit at the event and can join the non trade room bosses - though definitely not control the rooms or show agenda.

This avoids the typical show regime of one manufacturer selling from their room and brings a number of positives. It get more kit to the event, brings in some cash, makes promotion more likely across a wider platform and brings some interesting character to the event. In no way should it dilute the main thrust of the event which is allowing people to exchange equipment, mix n match and have a fun and informative day out.
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Well that is what I did and I tried to encourage others like Beresford, Dave Cawley and others to do the same, but none came.
 
lindsayt said:
It must have been someone else that suggested fixed time slots.

Fixed time slots wouldn't be my style of running an event like this.

I prefer flexibility as one never knows what kit will turn up, when it will turn up and how it will sound on the day. It's nice to be able to give the better sounding items a longer slot than the items that aren't sounding so good. It's nice to be able to satisfy specific requests from visitors to hear specific items or pieces of music.
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I agree, the format of the show should stay the same.

lindsayt said:
1 a cheaper venue found
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I quite liked the venue. Easy to get to and good sized rooms for competitive price. But it would be great to find somewhere more central and cheaper.

lindsayt said:
2 more people to turn up
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Yes, the attendance was the only disappointment of the show. How do we attract greater number? I think Richard should distance himself from the show completely. Then we should get greater participation from other forums.

lindsayt said:
3 a higher entrance fee charged
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No, I think that will discourage potential visitors. Advanced sales could help decide whether it's worth going ahead with the show or not.

lindsayt said:
4 trade sponsorship or a philanthropist to subsidise the cost (again)
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Sounds great in theory but I think that'll pollute the spirit of the event. I think it needs to be enthusiasts' show first and foremost.
 
I like that hotel, the rooms sounded better than other hotels I have heard hi-fi at.

I wouldn't discount magazines giving some press to the event before you try them. Ask for a mention in the news sections, and you might just get it. I think that one thing could make a huge difference. The problem is forums don't really reach a very wide audience.
 
The forum thing can be deceptive.

For example, compare the numbers posting here to the numbers actually viewing the threads - probably over 100:1

Replicate that across seven or eight uk forums and that's a big audience.

We only really want a couple of hundred visitors to the show. More and it will get unworkable IMO certainly with the current venue.
Going from 50 to 200 isn't a big ask at all IMO - it just needs selling and promoting.
 
lindsayt said:
1 a cheaper venue found

2 more people to turn up

3 a higher entrance fee charged

4 trade sponsorship or a philanthropist to subsidise the cost (again)
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Dev, you make some very good points.

1 Does a cheaper venue that will be just as good exist? Hotels aren't charities. What about universities during the summer holidays? Any of them have a few suitable rooms in a single block they'd be happy to rent out for a day for less than £500? Any other small multi-room conference type venues?

2 How much difference to the numbers would it make if Richard Dunn were to be distanced from the next event? And who would be willing to underwrite the costs of the next show? Any volunteers?

3 Charging more would adversely affect the numbers. By how much is unknown. £10 was a good nice round reasonable figure representing good value for money for a full day out.

4 Yes it's best if it's kept as an enthusiasts event. And I don't feel comfortable that one man ended up footing half the bill for the show. It's just not fair. If a cheaper venue can't be found, if we're not sure that over 100 people will come to the next event no matter how good the publicity, and higher prices are to be avoided then it may well be that sponsorship / philanthropy is the only answer - in which case the flavour of the next event may well be different.


It's possible that the Halloween bake-off might be first and last event of its' kind. I think that this would be a shame as it was a really good format, at a good venue, with a really nice positive helpful atmosphere.

So what can we do to make another one happen?
 
Well I was going to say have another go in spring, but that will just gets the twonks at Wigwam laying into us again for threatening Scalford, which is daft, but I have learnt there is not a lot of sense there :rolleyes:
 

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