Power and interconnect cable review.
- Thread starter D Louth 77
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No offence intended, Devil.
Just curious. DLouth kindly proffered his opinion that a difference existed, yourself and others have proffered their opinions that such a difference cannot exist. In the absence of empirical data, to support either stance, then both remain opinions. The absence of proof is most certainly not a valid disproof. 
Is it a reasonable opinion that fairies exist at the end of the garden? Or is it more likely, in the absence of any evidence, that they don't?
The more time that goes by while the cable believers fail to support their beliefs, even with something as simple as a listening test, the more likely it seems that it is in their minds rather than the air of their listening rooms.
Paul
The more time that goes by while the cable believers fail to support their beliefs, even with something as simple as a listening test, the more likely it seems that it is in their minds rather than the air of their listening rooms.
Paul
bottleneck
talks a load of rubbish
Hi
I don't believe that can be stated as a categoric fact.
I have heard sonic differences between amplifiers and cd players, of course, I have heard many over the years.
There have been some amplifiers and some cd players whose sonic characteristic (a good way of putting it I feel) was indistinguishable.
I like to use measurements when available (stereophile online reviews being a good source), which will often point to the nature of the difference.
Personally, I would characterise a demonstrable improvement in power, reduction in distortion etc in an amplifier as an improvement worth paying for over a mid-band ''hump'' engineered into a design. Of course using 'my ears' as a tool in auditioning I may jump to an alternative conclusion.
I'm living-while-learning with this hobby, and it's an ongoing learning curve
I use it standard, wasn't aware that it was all that good. I mainly got it to drive my projector and it ended up being a transport. Any recommendations on mods? Cheap and cheerful preferred as I'd never get the money back!
I do actually like cable debates as long as people remain open minded and non-offensive I think they're useful. For my own I am still waiting to hear the differences in mains cables, I own 2 and only run them as taking them off may change the sound so I don't bother. If anyone's in London and is up for showing me their stuff I'd appreciate it (West pref).
I understand DBT but have you considered that some people may be better at discerning differences? We're not all good at everything. Also I thought I could hear the difference between the green pen on a CD until I DBT'd myself with two identical dics (tricky). Got it consistently wrong.
I do think that some cables do sound very similar though and I can't always tell the difference. The way I "proved" speaker cable to myself and to some uninterested friends was with the following, if you're spending £1000's on cables you could pick up this kit and try for yourself (although I'm sure you won't!).... Chord Rumour \ Naim cable ( approx £6 mtr), a PDS703, Pioneer A400X, Celestion DL4 mk2's. The Chord Rumour blew my ears out with trebble, the Naim didn't. This for me was a very big difference and left me with no doubts! I've posted this before and I'd love a skeptic with some cash to get this kit, it'd be cheap and you'll see what I mean. Not sure I've ever heard the difference between digital cables, although I own a few including some expensive ones. I have heard the difference between interconnects on a cheapo Marantz system (sub £1k) it was very noticable, not so noticable on my high end system though (go figure!!).
Cheers, Tim
I do actually like cable debates as long as people remain open minded and non-offensive I think they're useful. For my own I am still waiting to hear the differences in mains cables, I own 2 and only run them as taking them off may change the sound so I don't bother. If anyone's in London and is up for showing me their stuff I'd appreciate it (West pref).
I understand DBT but have you considered that some people may be better at discerning differences? We're not all good at everything. Also I thought I could hear the difference between the green pen on a CD until I DBT'd myself with two identical dics (tricky). Got it consistently wrong.
I do think that some cables do sound very similar though and I can't always tell the difference. The way I "proved" speaker cable to myself and to some uninterested friends was with the following, if you're spending £1000's on cables you could pick up this kit and try for yourself (although I'm sure you won't!).... Chord Rumour \ Naim cable ( approx £6 mtr), a PDS703, Pioneer A400X, Celestion DL4 mk2's. The Chord Rumour blew my ears out with trebble, the Naim didn't. This for me was a very big difference and left me with no doubts! I've posted this before and I'd love a skeptic with some cash to get this kit, it'd be cheap and you'll see what I mean. Not sure I've ever heard the difference between digital cables, although I own a few including some expensive ones. I have heard the difference between interconnects on a cheapo Marantz system (sub £1k) it was very noticable, not so noticable on my high end system though (go figure!!).
Cheers, Tim
Not my intention at all. I don't want another cable war. These are my findings nothing more nothing less. For what they are worth in the context of my system.
Toshiba SD900E, brilliant bit of kit. Do you use it as was or with modifications ? If so what ? One of the best things Toshiba ever made and better/cheaper than the 9500 follow up model IMO/E. I still use mine and it has HDCD as well.
Regards and thanks D Louth 77
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I agree
I agree with your last statement Bootleneck. This hobby is indeed full of rich learning curves. However since 1988 when I first got into audio as a way of getting more out of the music I listen to, there has never been a time when I have not heard a change either for the positive or negative when trying new cables or components. I agree that measurements are a useful indicator of some possible aspects of performance but never all of them. To many variables exist to ever be definitive all we can hope for is a consensus based on both subjective and objective sources.
I think Deafcats link to the ( independent )test done on a Virtual Dynamic power cords is very interesting . They found a measurable change when using a stock cord and then the Virtual Dynamics cord. I have tried these but their design made them very hard to use. They did change the sound and for the best in my setup, but proved to be to hard to install fully so I stuck with what I have ( three thick Solid core cables as wide as a hose pipe going into a plug and not bound together ).
I would certainly be up for blind listening tests and have taken part in them in the past, but, as has been stated, the circumstances would need to be ideal for there to be any overall value. The tests would need to be conducted as in a scientific experiment, and with controls in place.
Placebo effects. Yes this might be a factor some times but I would venture not in the context of my test. At all times a difference was heard and with the Nordost it was not subtle. The differences between the Audience and Analysis Plus cable were mainly heard in the Bass as other areas of performance were similar, except for those areas noted.
I would love to be able to invite some of you guys over to try all this out but as I live in Northern Ireland I can't do that, which is a pity.
It is a fasinating thing how different people listen and I would love to do some work into this as it baffles me how some can hear somethings and not other things.
I have over the years done blind tests on customers in the shop. I have asked them to tell me what they have heard, but not told them what I was doing and certainly not what to expect. Most of the time differences have been noted and sometimes with greater effect than with others but most have heard something different.
I will illustrate two of those times.
Shanling first versin top loader/valve CDP (I can't remember the model). Got a lot of good reviews. We brought one in and after a lot of run in felt very underwhelmed by the sound from it. We thought it must be faulty. However I took it home for one last listen and got a very good result from it. It took me awhile to work out how. The reason was the platform it was sitting on was different to the ones used before. This was a Clearlight audio RDC platform. One of the rave reviews it got, was from a reviewer ( David Allcock. What happened to him ?) who happened to be using Clearlight Audio racks (similar effect to platforms). I took the player into work,let it warm up and played it again. Several collegues listened and said as before not very good. I placed the RDC platform under the player and did not let them see what I had done . They all heard the sound improve and massively. A custoner/friend who used to be in the trade years ago while in also heard the same and further more we actually found out that it sounded better held in the air (though not as good as on the RDC platform.) I have never before found something so fussy about what it sits on. Now if Magazines today were what they used to be many years ago perhaps David Allcock would have had the editorial space to discover and convey this info in the review, something he did not do. Would have saved some time, but taken the fun out of it.
Second time a mains lead. The TCI BOA Constrictor. This lead is certainly one of the best at giving a massive boost to the performance of any type of kit (system and kit tonality matching is important ). This is blind, deaf man on galloping horse noticeable i.e not subtle. I did cable swaps for a customer without telling him what I was doing and he jumped out of his seat in shock at how big the sound change was( this wasn't even in a demo room but on the shop floor ( so less than ideal acoustics etc). I had the same effect in another customers house, first time he had ever heard such a big change in sound (this was on A Wadia 861 Basic ) and all from swapping a power lead ( Wadia don't believe in power cords or mains filters ).There can be no placebo effect if people are not made aware of what you are doing if anything at all. If you just make the change.
I also feel that group listening is not advisable much better to test things on each listener so they can't be influenced in any way. You know peer pressure etc.
I know this will not convince the hardened skeptics but this is what has happened and only a few occasions out of many, both in my system and elsewhere.
The world used to be flat until it was proved to be round ( funny how JOB new that 1000's of years before modern man did. But thats another topic ). Just try and have an open mind. Even if we can't say why something happens as a scientific formula still doesn't mean it does not happen.
Regards D Louth 77
I agree with your last statement Bootleneck. This hobby is indeed full of rich learning curves. However since 1988 when I first got into audio as a way of getting more out of the music I listen to, there has never been a time when I have not heard a change either for the positive or negative when trying new cables or components. I agree that measurements are a useful indicator of some possible aspects of performance but never all of them. To many variables exist to ever be definitive all we can hope for is a consensus based on both subjective and objective sources.
I think Deafcats link to the ( independent )test done on a Virtual Dynamic power cords is very interesting . They found a measurable change when using a stock cord and then the Virtual Dynamics cord. I have tried these but their design made them very hard to use. They did change the sound and for the best in my setup, but proved to be to hard to install fully so I stuck with what I have ( three thick Solid core cables as wide as a hose pipe going into a plug and not bound together ).
I would certainly be up for blind listening tests and have taken part in them in the past, but, as has been stated, the circumstances would need to be ideal for there to be any overall value. The tests would need to be conducted as in a scientific experiment, and with controls in place.
Placebo effects. Yes this might be a factor some times but I would venture not in the context of my test. At all times a difference was heard and with the Nordost it was not subtle. The differences between the Audience and Analysis Plus cable were mainly heard in the Bass as other areas of performance were similar, except for those areas noted.
I would love to be able to invite some of you guys over to try all this out but as I live in Northern Ireland I can't do that, which is a pity.
It is a fasinating thing how different people listen and I would love to do some work into this as it baffles me how some can hear somethings and not other things.
I have over the years done blind tests on customers in the shop. I have asked them to tell me what they have heard, but not told them what I was doing and certainly not what to expect. Most of the time differences have been noted and sometimes with greater effect than with others but most have heard something different.
I will illustrate two of those times.
Shanling first versin top loader/valve CDP (I can't remember the model). Got a lot of good reviews. We brought one in and after a lot of run in felt very underwhelmed by the sound from it. We thought it must be faulty. However I took it home for one last listen and got a very good result from it. It took me awhile to work out how. The reason was the platform it was sitting on was different to the ones used before. This was a Clearlight audio RDC platform. One of the rave reviews it got, was from a reviewer ( David Allcock. What happened to him ?) who happened to be using Clearlight Audio racks (similar effect to platforms). I took the player into work,let it warm up and played it again. Several collegues listened and said as before not very good. I placed the RDC platform under the player and did not let them see what I had done . They all heard the sound improve and massively. A custoner/friend who used to be in the trade years ago while in also heard the same and further more we actually found out that it sounded better held in the air (though not as good as on the RDC platform.) I have never before found something so fussy about what it sits on. Now if Magazines today were what they used to be many years ago perhaps David Allcock would have had the editorial space to discover and convey this info in the review, something he did not do. Would have saved some time, but taken the fun out of it.
Second time a mains lead. The TCI BOA Constrictor. This lead is certainly one of the best at giving a massive boost to the performance of any type of kit (system and kit tonality matching is important ). This is blind, deaf man on galloping horse noticeable i.e not subtle. I did cable swaps for a customer without telling him what I was doing and he jumped out of his seat in shock at how big the sound change was( this wasn't even in a demo room but on the shop floor ( so less than ideal acoustics etc). I had the same effect in another customers house, first time he had ever heard such a big change in sound (this was on A Wadia 861 Basic ) and all from swapping a power lead ( Wadia don't believe in power cords or mains filters ).There can be no placebo effect if people are not made aware of what you are doing if anything at all. If you just make the change.
I also feel that group listening is not advisable much better to test things on each listener so they can't be influenced in any way. You know peer pressure etc.
I know this will not convince the hardened skeptics but this is what has happened and only a few occasions out of many, both in my system and elsewhere.
The world used to be flat until it was proved to be round ( funny how JOB new that 1000's of years before modern man did. But thats another topic ). Just try and have an open mind. Even if we can't say why something happens as a scientific formula still doesn't mean it does not happen.
Regards D Louth 77
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The Devil
IHTFP
Ah well, the cable believers believe they can hear effects which cannot be shown by any method to be present. Some believe in "god" as well.
I must say the "Virtual Dynamics" link made me laugh. It's a transparent piece of nonsense, as any sensible person can see, or so I thought....
There's one born every minute.
I must say the "Virtual Dynamics" link made me laugh. It's a transparent piece of nonsense, as any sensible person can see, or so I thought....
There's one born every minute.
The Devil
IHTFP
No offence intended, Devil.
You've just done precisely what really stupid religious people do, when presented with the lack of evidence for the existence of a god, or gods. The onus of proof is on the person making the irrational statement. In the absence of any evidence to support a seemingly absurd statement, it is not reasonable to believe that statement.
bottleneck
talks a load of rubbish
I think 'strong arguements' are par for the course with this debate - and others like it.
It's worth bearing in mind " reformed smoker disease" - as I call it.
In essence, a reformed smoker will be the most anti-smoker in opinion you can imagine - the smell, the anti social aspect, the cost, health aspects... a social pariah can be made by a reformed smoker.
Such is the 'reformed believer' for want of a different expression. Everyone starts with the magazine reviews, the published information - and a 'reformed believer' is often angry and what they feel is nonsense, and worse published nonsense.
All I'm saying, a 'non believer' is someone who has been there, done that, and worn the T shirt.
'Believers' may be equally experienced and have followed a different path.
I try to remain impartial, but of course there is a fence, and it's too narrow to sit on.
I believe that which can be heard - can be measured, and can be explained. I believe in differences, but I believe we have the know-how and ability to explain sonic differences, and trace them to root - harder in an amplifier or CD player which has a myriad of components, a lot easier in the simple technology of a cable.
It's worth bearing in mind " reformed smoker disease" - as I call it.
In essence, a reformed smoker will be the most anti-smoker in opinion you can imagine - the smell, the anti social aspect, the cost, health aspects... a social pariah can be made by a reformed smoker.
Such is the 'reformed believer' for want of a different expression. Everyone starts with the magazine reviews, the published information - and a 'reformed believer' is often angry and what they feel is nonsense, and worse published nonsense.
All I'm saying, a 'non believer' is someone who has been there, done that, and worn the T shirt.
'Believers' may be equally experienced and have followed a different path.
I try to remain impartial, but of course there is a fence, and it's too narrow to sit on.
I believe that which can be heard - can be measured, and can be explained. I believe in differences, but I believe we have the know-how and ability to explain sonic differences, and trace them to root - harder in an amplifier or CD player which has a myriad of components, a lot easier in the simple technology of a cable.
penance
Arrogant Cock
Yes, they help my veg grow. I have seen them on a late summers eve after a bottle of Amarone.
The Devil
IHTFP
Of course that is completely correct. Modern amplifiers produce distortion which can be measured but not heard. Oscilloscopes are much more sensitive than human hearing. They are also impartial.
The problems arise when self-proclaimed "hi-fi experts" who are usually also "expert listeners" get involved. These people think that they can hear stuff which cannot be measured. There is absolutely no evidence to support their claims, and they often take great offence whenever this is pointed out.
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Politician
I just love the way some including Mr devil just give politician answers i.e put forward their agenda and don't offer comment on what is shared.
Oh well.
As to people of faith being stupid, and no empirical evidence existing to prove that God exists. Well all I can say is that Mr Devil you must have more faith than me.
try this http://www.answersingenesis.org/get-answers
And before anyone complains Mr Devil introduced faith to the debate not I.
God Bless D Louth 77
Come to think about it, never mind the cable debate, the Devil would say that God does not exist, now wouldn't he.
I just love the way some including Mr devil just give politician answers i.e put forward their agenda and don't offer comment on what is shared.
Oh well.
As to people of faith being stupid, and no empirical evidence existing to prove that God exists. Well all I can say is that Mr Devil you must have more faith than me.
try this http://www.answersingenesis.org/get-answers
And before anyone complains Mr Devil introduced faith to the debate not I.
God Bless D Louth 77
Come to think about it, never mind the cable debate, the Devil would say that God does not exist, now wouldn't he.
The Devil
IHTFP
Which particular god are you saying definitely exists? There are so many to choose from... How about Thor? Do you believe Thor exists? The existence of Thursday seems like a good starting point for a Thor discussion.
lbr
monkey boy
Onus of proof? If we're talking about subjective effect then all anyone can do is produce experimental results that support a hypothesis, whether that is that cables make a difference or that they do not.
Not a well designed experiment, I agree
The Devil
IHTFP
mick parry
stroppy old git
Bub
A thousand greetings.
You and I have the intellect that puts us above the IQ of 98% of the population. ( Bub is a consultant and I was once a member of Mensa) and I actually believe in God.
I also believe that it is wrong to dismiss cables, if you can hear the difference, there is a difference and that kills any subsequent discussion.
Regards
Mick
The Devil
IHTFP
Hi Mick,
You may believe that you hear a difference, exactly as you may believe there is a god, or indeed gods. That belief does not mean that the difference or the god is actually there. Evidence would be nice, and none exists.
Regards,
