technobear
Ursine Audiophile
Croft hybrids are very good.
I also like Lavardin and LFD.
I also like Lavardin and LFD.
Solid State amps with 'presence'
- Thread starter McShads
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if you can cope with a low power (10w, class A), than first watt F3. surely the most "SS doing the tube trick" amp my ears heard.
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Hi Mcshads
I borrowed a pure sound a30 at the weekend to try for you but even in my small upstairs room it just didn't drive the Ref 3a Dulcets properly. Depending on the recording level of the Cd listened to it was either just okay or poor on older discs(which are recorded with less gain). My Marantz cd7 was bettered by the Amr cd77(as it has more output voltage via its rca's),its a better cd player anyway.
I tried the Consonance once and found it to be quite good (it has better output transformers than the A 30 amp). The Bat vk300se is a fantastic amp,if you leave it in standbye mode (takes a week to warm up and sound best in balanced mode,your Resolution audio 21 is not balanced,i don't think? If it is you need to invert the phase on the amp,for the input you are using). The bat works very well with the Dulcets(at least it does in my system) but it lacks the magic of an all valve amp.
10 watts will not be enough unless the amp has fantastic current and brilliant output transformers,other wise i would not wast your time with these types of amps.
An ex-demo/sh T+A v10 amp works well with the Dulcets few of these kicking around at the minute nice amp but lacks a bit of transparency compared to similiar priced amps £5000. If you can get one for about £2500 that would be a good option as the V10 is an 80 watt valve amp.
Regards D Louth
I borrowed a pure sound a30 at the weekend to try for you but even in my small upstairs room it just didn't drive the Ref 3a Dulcets properly. Depending on the recording level of the Cd listened to it was either just okay or poor on older discs(which are recorded with less gain). My Marantz cd7 was bettered by the Amr cd77(as it has more output voltage via its rca's),its a better cd player anyway.
I tried the Consonance once and found it to be quite good (it has better output transformers than the A 30 amp). The Bat vk300se is a fantastic amp,if you leave it in standbye mode (takes a week to warm up and sound best in balanced mode,your Resolution audio 21 is not balanced,i don't think? If it is you need to invert the phase on the amp,for the input you are using). The bat works very well with the Dulcets(at least it does in my system) but it lacks the magic of an all valve amp.
10 watts will not be enough unless the amp has fantastic current and brilliant output transformers,other wise i would not wast your time with these types of amps.
An ex-demo/sh T+A v10 amp works well with the Dulcets few of these kicking around at the minute nice amp but lacks a bit of transparency compared to similiar priced amps £5000. If you can get one for about £2500 that would be a good option as the V10 is an 80 watt valve amp.
Regards D Louth
Hi DL
Thanks for taking such an interest.
The Opus 21 does have a balanced option.
"lacks the magic of an all valve amp" is this the bottom line? Do only all valve amps have that certain something?
Can you tell from the spec. of an amp wether it has "fantastic current"?
The following is a list of amps that I thought might be worth pursuing though getting home demo's is really not proving easy!
In no particular order;
Air Tight ATM-1S All tube 40 ish watts better transformers than the Pure Sound (I would hope)
Ayre AX7e SS
EAR 834T Hybrid
Leben CX300/600 All tube
Sugden Masterclass SS
BAT VK300 that you mentioned Hybrid
YBA integrated 200/300? SS
CJ CAV50 (s/h) All Tube
Moon i7 SS
Do you have any experience/thoughts on these?
I shall look into the T+A v10
Whenever I have put together a system, at whatever price point it has always been the amp which has given me most trouble. I'm really looking for a 'keeper' this time. In my experience the amp is both the hardest and most important thing to get right.
Thanks again for your thoughts
Regards
McShads
Thanks for taking such an interest.
The Opus 21 does have a balanced option.
"lacks the magic of an all valve amp" is this the bottom line? Do only all valve amps have that certain something?
Can you tell from the spec. of an amp wether it has "fantastic current"?
The following is a list of amps that I thought might be worth pursuing though getting home demo's is really not proving easy!
In no particular order;
Air Tight ATM-1S All tube 40 ish watts better transformers than the Pure Sound (I would hope)
Ayre AX7e SS
EAR 834T Hybrid
Leben CX300/600 All tube
Sugden Masterclass SS
BAT VK300 that you mentioned Hybrid
YBA integrated 200/300? SS
CJ CAV50 (s/h) All Tube
Moon i7 SS
Do you have any experience/thoughts on these?
I shall look into the T+A v10
Whenever I have put together a system, at whatever price point it has always been the amp which has given me most trouble. I'm really looking for a 'keeper' this time. In my experience the amp is both the hardest and most important thing to get right.
Thanks again for your thoughts
Regards
McShads
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bottleneck
talks a load of rubbish
Hi Mcshads
Only have experience of the CJ amp.
NB - They can be bought on Audiogon, imported and voltage converted (most cj stuff).. which is a much cheaper way of buying into the brand.
It's a nice amp, but if I was taking a punt-in-the-dark I'd much rather try an Air Tight.. would love to hear one of those..
Theres a lot of hybrids on your list.. are you sure you want valves?
Only have experience of the CJ amp.
NB - They can be bought on Audiogon, imported and voltage converted (most cj stuff).. which is a much cheaper way of buying into the brand.
It's a nice amp, but if I was taking a punt-in-the-dark I'd much rather try an Air Tight.. would love to hear one of those..
Theres a lot of hybrids on your list.. are you sure you want valves?
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Hi Mcshads.
No problem,i like helping out if i can and trying something is usually the only way. Of the amps you have listed i have heard the Moon i7,it is very good as far as solid state can be. It had a nice open and detailed quality ,in fact it had quite an organic sound which didn't spotlight any of the frequencies .However in my own system it lacked the presence and dimension of valves,sounding flatter and less natural IMHO. But for many i can see this being an excellent choice(i used it hooked up in balanced mode and with my Moon andromeda Cd player),i still thought ,in my set up that the BAT pre and Music Reference amp(KT66 valves 100 watt) sounded more natural and life like .
Leben and Air tight get good comments but i have not heard either except at shows and i do not feel happy to offer an opinion,until i can hear them in my own room at home . So sorry i can't help on these except to say if you can get hold of them you should try them. Yes i think that the Air tight out put transformers will be better as would the Lebens. At the end of the day the A30 is only £1100 and while very good at that price would not have the build quality of those dearer amps. With Valve amps the quality and weight of the output transformers can allow you to get away with less power but this is not a firm rule just something that one comes across sometimes, however i would always suggest that good heavy transformers will offer some indication as to how good an amp can be. Can you tell from specs,yes i guess you can ,if you know what make of transformers are used and their size and the power rating of the amp this will help but there is not substitute for hearing the amp in your system.
My problem was mostly always speakers i could never get any to work well in my room ,until i found the Gallo Ref 3's but by buying them i made a rod to break my back in that i need at least 50 watts and more to drive them in my room so single ended low power while sounding amazing can't be used by me. I was talking to some one in the industry yesterday who defined the problem quite well i think. Modern speakers act to much like a severe filter on the signal ,stripping to much of the sound(hence one needs a very good front end to compensate for the loss). Many old speaker designs and the better horns leave the signal more intact and therefore work well with low powered single ended amps and front end quality while still important can be achieved with less being spent there as the amp/speaker allows all the sound generated to be reproduced;less filtering happening.( I hope i have done justice to what i was told)This is why so many go down this road ,i might change to this type of set up but my current situation will not allow it however this explanation made a lot of sense to me.
Ear is good kit but Tim uses valves in a different way to most so a lot of his kit sounds different to how other valve gear sounds ,i own an 864 pre which i like but i have not heard the item you list. With Ear its best to not assume it sounds like other gear you have heard. You will either like it or not,i know a guy who hates it,i think hes being unfair as he wonders why any one would use valves but that they sound more solid state;i don't fully agree with him but can sort of see why he has said this.
Yba and Ayre are very good but not in any way like valves,if that is what you are after these are taking you far away from that road.
I like my Bat 300 vk se a lot but like the Moon it just lacks that full valve magic . For some it may be a compromise they can live with and i did for a few years ,as i moved on to this from the Pathos classic one i used and the Bat was a big improvement but when i tried a valve power amp with it as a pre i decided to go valve again (but to match the Gallos).The upstairs system then went valve fully and this was better ,than before and suited the REF 3A Dulcets very well;so both set ups are now fully valve.
If an amp you try has balanced in i would hook your cd player up that way as it will often give you the best sound.
Mcshads only buy if you have tried it and like it,good luck.
Regards D Louth
No problem,i like helping out if i can and trying something is usually the only way. Of the amps you have listed i have heard the Moon i7,it is very good as far as solid state can be. It had a nice open and detailed quality ,in fact it had quite an organic sound which didn't spotlight any of the frequencies .However in my own system it lacked the presence and dimension of valves,sounding flatter and less natural IMHO. But for many i can see this being an excellent choice(i used it hooked up in balanced mode and with my Moon andromeda Cd player),i still thought ,in my set up that the BAT pre and Music Reference amp(KT66 valves 100 watt) sounded more natural and life like .
Leben and Air tight get good comments but i have not heard either except at shows and i do not feel happy to offer an opinion,until i can hear them in my own room at home . So sorry i can't help on these except to say if you can get hold of them you should try them. Yes i think that the Air tight out put transformers will be better as would the Lebens. At the end of the day the A30 is only £1100 and while very good at that price would not have the build quality of those dearer amps. With Valve amps the quality and weight of the output transformers can allow you to get away with less power but this is not a firm rule just something that one comes across sometimes, however i would always suggest that good heavy transformers will offer some indication as to how good an amp can be. Can you tell from specs,yes i guess you can ,if you know what make of transformers are used and their size and the power rating of the amp this will help but there is not substitute for hearing the amp in your system.
My problem was mostly always speakers i could never get any to work well in my room ,until i found the Gallo Ref 3's but by buying them i made a rod to break my back in that i need at least 50 watts and more to drive them in my room so single ended low power while sounding amazing can't be used by me. I was talking to some one in the industry yesterday who defined the problem quite well i think. Modern speakers act to much like a severe filter on the signal ,stripping to much of the sound(hence one needs a very good front end to compensate for the loss). Many old speaker designs and the better horns leave the signal more intact and therefore work well with low powered single ended amps and front end quality while still important can be achieved with less being spent there as the amp/speaker allows all the sound generated to be reproduced;less filtering happening.( I hope i have done justice to what i was told)This is why so many go down this road ,i might change to this type of set up but my current situation will not allow it however this explanation made a lot of sense to me.
Ear is good kit but Tim uses valves in a different way to most so a lot of his kit sounds different to how other valve gear sounds ,i own an 864 pre which i like but i have not heard the item you list. With Ear its best to not assume it sounds like other gear you have heard. You will either like it or not,i know a guy who hates it,i think hes being unfair as he wonders why any one would use valves but that they sound more solid state;i don't fully agree with him but can sort of see why he has said this.
Yba and Ayre are very good but not in any way like valves,if that is what you are after these are taking you far away from that road.
I like my Bat 300 vk se a lot but like the Moon it just lacks that full valve magic . For some it may be a compromise they can live with and i did for a few years ,as i moved on to this from the Pathos classic one i used and the Bat was a big improvement but when i tried a valve power amp with it as a pre i decided to go valve again (but to match the Gallos).The upstairs system then went valve fully and this was better ,than before and suited the REF 3A Dulcets very well;so both set ups are now fully valve.
If an amp you try has balanced in i would hook your cd player up that way as it will often give you the best sound.
Mcshads only buy if you have tried it and like it,good luck.
Regards D Louth
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In a way I'd rather not have valves but if valves are the only way to get what I want then I'll have valves!
bottleneck
talks a load of rubbish
Hiya Mcshads, I like hybrids and valve amps when you need current, personally.. but they sound different for sure.
When it comes time to have 8 power output tubes and a re-valve cost of £400 (every 18 months or so) - perhaps because you want 100w per channel or something... then personally I move to solid state.. I just balk at chucking money away like that.
Big valve amps cost a fortune to run over time.
There are exceptions like the amazing Berning ZH270 amp, but by and large that's a truism.
...also a great reason to go for sensitive speakers if you ask me
When it comes time to have 8 power output tubes and a re-valve cost of £400 (every 18 months or so) - perhaps because you want 100w per channel or something... then personally I move to solid state.. I just balk at chucking money away like that.
Big valve amps cost a fortune to run over time.
There are exceptions like the amazing Berning ZH270 amp, but by and large that's a truism.
...also a great reason to go for sensitive speakers if you ask me
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Hi Mcshads
I have two systems one uses gallo ref 3 and one uses ref 3a dulcets. I was talking in a wider context(regarding the down stairs system). My suggestions are based on the Dulcets and not the gallos,which have a whole different set of requirements.
You said about having amp problems and my problems were always with speakers but the dulcets work amazingly well in my small upstairs room and the gallos in a room which never allowed the use of near full range speakers without bass boom. The gallos produce excellent bass in this room,never mind the quality mid and treble.
Regards D Louth
I have two systems one uses gallo ref 3 and one uses ref 3a dulcets. I was talking in a wider context(regarding the down stairs system). My suggestions are based on the Dulcets and not the gallos,which have a whole different set of requirements.
You said about having amp problems and my problems were always with speakers but the dulcets work amazingly well in my small upstairs room and the gallos in a room which never allowed the use of near full range speakers without bass boom. The gallos produce excellent bass in this room,never mind the quality mid and treble.
Regards D Louth
SMEagol
Because we wants it...
A friend of mine is selling a Karan think its the KA-i180 integrated one and he wants about £1800, I don't know retail but I think this is a good deal? I think it might be ex demo, but all his stuffs in lovely condition.
PM sent which exposes the previous statement as a bit wrong!
PM sent which exposes the previous statement as a bit wrong!
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Hi Mcshads
The upstairs system uses a Bat valve pre-amp and a Music reference RM 200 (100 watts KT 66 valves) power amp(this American range is not available in the UK as its designer Richard Modesky thinks that the eu specs are a load of crap,Rohs etc. Because he wont CE mark them they can't be brought in commercially ,though you can bring it in yourself. I bought this on E-Bay awhile ago).These work really well but i have also got an Ear 864 pre and a pair of Audio Innovations Series 1000 mk 3 amps (5881 valves rather than el34)and while these are veiled in comparison they do sound very good too.
Things may be about to change again but still staying valve, a friend has a friend who builds single ended amps (not commercially ,and has no interest in doing so) and i have been playing with a pre amp that uses 6n7 and 6sn7 valves and the power amp is a 6a3 5 watt amp. This should not work but does(bear in mind upstairs room is a tiny box room(actually its a rectangle) . The Sound is a perfectly formed ,small scale version of what i have downstairs possibly better in terms of clarity. However i still need to do a lot of listening before i go down this road as if i do and move house then i know this sound will be gone. Its only because of the small size that 5 watts so far seams to work. This info is an aside and not really relevant to you so don't look at low power ,for your bigger room? you need more , i think . Though come to think of it i don't know anything about the size of your room or the music you like ,ummm!
Regards D Louth
The upstairs system uses a Bat valve pre-amp and a Music reference RM 200 (100 watts KT 66 valves) power amp(this American range is not available in the UK as its designer Richard Modesky thinks that the eu specs are a load of crap,Rohs etc. Because he wont CE mark them they can't be brought in commercially ,though you can bring it in yourself. I bought this on E-Bay awhile ago).These work really well but i have also got an Ear 864 pre and a pair of Audio Innovations Series 1000 mk 3 amps (5881 valves rather than el34)and while these are veiled in comparison they do sound very good too.
Things may be about to change again but still staying valve, a friend has a friend who builds single ended amps (not commercially ,and has no interest in doing so) and i have been playing with a pre amp that uses 6n7 and 6sn7 valves and the power amp is a 6a3 5 watt amp. This should not work but does(bear in mind upstairs room is a tiny box room(actually its a rectangle) . The Sound is a perfectly formed ,small scale version of what i have downstairs possibly better in terms of clarity. However i still need to do a lot of listening before i go down this road as if i do and move house then i know this sound will be gone. Its only because of the small size that 5 watts so far seams to work. This info is an aside and not really relevant to you so don't look at low power ,for your bigger room? you need more , i think . Though come to think of it i don't know anything about the size of your room or the music you like ,ummm!
Regards D Louth
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Thanks DL, I was getting a bit confused between your up/down systems!
My room is 10x16' and I listen to all sorts, small and large scale classical, jazz, blues and 'classic' rock (zep, hendrix) Tori Amos etc.
Any experience of the Karan integrated mentioned above or YBA or Bel Canto that the 3A importer uses?
Regards
McShads
My room is 10x16' and I listen to all sorts, small and large scale classical, jazz, blues and 'classic' rock (zep, hendrix) Tori Amos etc.
Any experience of the Karan integrated mentioned above or YBA or Bel Canto that the 3A importer uses?
Regards
McShads
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Hi mcshads
Sorry for the confusion. I have heard Karan at a show,but it was a pre power with a Zanden cd player and Avalon speakers great sound . Branco (Audio freaks always gets a great sound,pity about him). However i have not heard the integrated,sorry. I used to know the sound of YBA quite well 15 years ago,but i have no idea what it is like now,again sorry.
I know Simon the Ref 3a guy quite well ,(what a character and a really nice guy in fact a real gentleman). He used to import Antique Sound lab and may still do so(these are Valve) There is a tie up between REF 3A and Antique Sound Lab as Divergent Technology owns ref 3a and imports Antique Sound Lab. They tend to use these at US/Canadian shows for their demos. I have met Tash who runs Divergent and has a hand in taking Daniel Lehays designs(REF 3A) further after it moved to Canada (originally a Swiss company).
The Bel Canto kit is very good ,they used to make all valve gear,but sadly while this new stuff sounds a bit like valves its not the same as a valve amp(how can it be). It lacks that three dimensional imaging and the presence/musicality of valves. As i have said before there really is no substitute(if there is i have still to hear it/find it/see it. It may exist ? But so far is just a nice possibility).
The main reason i have gone back to valves is that i just could not settle with solid state(no matter how good) and hybrid while coming close just didn't quite do it for me. I was haunted by the fantastic sound i used to have at my parents house.
That system was in a small L shaped room . Audio Innovations S 500 (el34 valve amp class A 25 watts), Marantz CD 94 mk 2 , Pro-ac Super Tablets mk 1 on heavy 4 legged stands. Cabling was Xlo tye 6 and Deltec black slink. System sat on Target stand + wall shelf and the cd player on a mana ref table. I used ec audio mains products(early Tom Evans) and Kimber power cables. I also had an Oracle Delphi turntable ,Sme 309 arm and VDH mc 10 cart and a Head step up,cabling all Audio Note Anv silver. This system was amazing it was open and detailed,musical,natural and above all always imaged amazingly(the sound never came from speakers). The depth was breathtaking,regularly the soundstage stretched to the garden of the house opposite and the boundary walls of the room where not there either. Over a period of time i was able to tune the system to the room and while the sound was not full bandwidth it was brilliant and i loved it. I listen to a wider range of music now but back then it was mostly American melodic rock (Kansas,Saga,Journey etc) ,ProgRock (Yes,Elp,Gong,Hawkwind etc) and jazz and early Dance music(Klf,Orb etc) with some female singer song writer stuff (Joni Mitchell, Jane Sibery, Kate Bush etc). And this system worked well with all of this . After i got married i lost my job not long after that and this system would not reproduce in the new house what it did in my parents house ,Crap. Its really only in the last 6 years or so that i have been able to go back into this and i am where i am now, which is much better off. My systems are much better than that original system in every way except image depth. But i am getting closer as my recent playing around with cables has shown,the QED Genesis as good as it is was and is holding tings back. In the upstairs set up i have almost got the depth back i used to have. At one time i was going to ask if i could put my old system(i tend not to get rid of stuff) back into my old bedroom and go over and listen to it,but i don't have to now as i have cracked the problem,which was mostly speaker related.
Based on what you have told me about your room and taste in music you will need at least 50 watts of valve power or 30 exceptionally good valve watts,with fabulous output transformers.
Audio Zone i have only read about , again sorry.
Hope this is of some help to you
Regards D Louth
Sorry for the confusion. I have heard Karan at a show,but it was a pre power with a Zanden cd player and Avalon speakers great sound . Branco (Audio freaks always gets a great sound,pity about him). However i have not heard the integrated,sorry. I used to know the sound of YBA quite well 15 years ago,but i have no idea what it is like now,again sorry.
I know Simon the Ref 3a guy quite well ,(what a character and a really nice guy in fact a real gentleman). He used to import Antique Sound lab and may still do so(these are Valve) There is a tie up between REF 3A and Antique Sound Lab as Divergent Technology owns ref 3a and imports Antique Sound Lab. They tend to use these at US/Canadian shows for their demos. I have met Tash who runs Divergent and has a hand in taking Daniel Lehays designs(REF 3A) further after it moved to Canada (originally a Swiss company).
The Bel Canto kit is very good ,they used to make all valve gear,but sadly while this new stuff sounds a bit like valves its not the same as a valve amp(how can it be). It lacks that three dimensional imaging and the presence/musicality of valves. As i have said before there really is no substitute(if there is i have still to hear it/find it/see it. It may exist ? But so far is just a nice possibility).
The main reason i have gone back to valves is that i just could not settle with solid state(no matter how good) and hybrid while coming close just didn't quite do it for me. I was haunted by the fantastic sound i used to have at my parents house.
That system was in a small L shaped room . Audio Innovations S 500 (el34 valve amp class A 25 watts), Marantz CD 94 mk 2 , Pro-ac Super Tablets mk 1 on heavy 4 legged stands. Cabling was Xlo tye 6 and Deltec black slink. System sat on Target stand + wall shelf and the cd player on a mana ref table. I used ec audio mains products(early Tom Evans) and Kimber power cables. I also had an Oracle Delphi turntable ,Sme 309 arm and VDH mc 10 cart and a Head step up,cabling all Audio Note Anv silver. This system was amazing it was open and detailed,musical,natural and above all always imaged amazingly(the sound never came from speakers). The depth was breathtaking,regularly the soundstage stretched to the garden of the house opposite and the boundary walls of the room where not there either. Over a period of time i was able to tune the system to the room and while the sound was not full bandwidth it was brilliant and i loved it. I listen to a wider range of music now but back then it was mostly American melodic rock (Kansas,Saga,Journey etc) ,ProgRock (Yes,Elp,Gong,Hawkwind etc) and jazz and early Dance music(Klf,Orb etc) with some female singer song writer stuff (Joni Mitchell, Jane Sibery, Kate Bush etc). And this system worked well with all of this . After i got married i lost my job not long after that and this system would not reproduce in the new house what it did in my parents house ,Crap. Its really only in the last 6 years or so that i have been able to go back into this and i am where i am now, which is much better off. My systems are much better than that original system in every way except image depth. But i am getting closer as my recent playing around with cables has shown,the QED Genesis as good as it is was and is holding tings back. In the upstairs set up i have almost got the depth back i used to have. At one time i was going to ask if i could put my old system(i tend not to get rid of stuff) back into my old bedroom and go over and listen to it,but i don't have to now as i have cracked the problem,which was mostly speaker related.
Based on what you have told me about your room and taste in music you will need at least 50 watts of valve power or 30 exceptionally good valve watts,with fabulous output transformers.
Audio Zone i have only read about , again sorry.
Hope this is of some help to you
Regards D Louth
I've owned the latest Mk3 version of the Karan KAi180 since February. It really is a marvellous amp in every sense. It replaced Bel Canto's Pre2 and Ref 1000 monos (all modifed by Coherent Systems at great expense). The Karan was in another class for musicality, solidity and giving a 3D sound. At £1800 that is a great deal. Karan build some of the best solid-state amps on the market. They have a powerful grain-free sound, giving some of that lovely tube sound with bags of grunt. I'd take a look at it, could be just the ticket. It's gonna take something very special to replace mine. In fact since acquiring some Living Voice speakers i'll be having a 300B PP amp custom built in the next year or two.
Purite Audio
Purite Audio
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Sounds interesting Papa, who is going to make that for you?
As an aside, I have had the three types of Allnic 300B amp here, the single ended, push pull and parallel single ended and the PSE seems to offer the best sound, the punch of the push pull but still retaining the beautiful mids and treble.
As an aside, I have had the three types of Allnic 300B amp here, the single ended, push pull and parallel single ended and the PSE seems to offer the best sound, the punch of the push pull but still retaining the beautiful mids and treble.
A friend! (wink)
Kevin Scott and my friend both agree that the best compromise with the LVs is a 20 watt 300B in PP configuration. You get the grunt/bass control with a slight sacrifice in sweetness compared to a SET.
We'll be talking Slagle or Tribute transformers, silver wiring, WEs etc.
Purite Audio
Purite Audio
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Sounds interesting, have a listen to the Emission Labs I prefer them to te WE's, Keith.
