The Real Kick Out Of Sound...

[RobHolt]

As for tracking distortion.... how about jitter and error correction with digital? I suppose if you love a lack of bandwidth, then CD is great! Because the last I heard violins have a huge amount of harmonic content above 20Khz and CD has a brick wall filter there

Jitter - low enough to be completely ignored in any competent CD player, which is most of them.

Error correction - Not an issue on anything but badly damaged discs or broken transports.

Lack of bandwidth:

- Nearly everything pressed to vinyl in the lat 30 years has digital origins.
- Tracing distortions and scanning losses are clear to see and hear at and below 20khz with even a modern line profile tip. You certainly won't be be resolving much above that without high levels of distortion.
- Stylus tip/mass resonance again means you aren't going to get much higher than 20khz.
- As Joel points out above, not only does a live FM broadcast sound superb even via the digital relay, but the system also operates within a tighter bandwidth than CD.

None of which means that vinyl sounds bad, simply that CD can easily match or exceed it's capabilities given a good transfer.

 

[Legzr1]

Jitter - low enough to be completely ignored in any competent CD player, which is most of them.

Error correction - Not an issue on anything but badly damaged discs or broken transports.

Lack of bandwidth:

- Nearly everything pressed to vinyl in the lat 30 years has digital origins.
- Tracing distortions and scanning losses are clear to see and hear at and below 20khz with even a modern line profile tip. You certainly won't be be resolving much above that without high levels of distortion.
- Stylus tip/mass resonance again means you aren't going to get much higher than 20khz.
- As Joel points out above, not only does a live FM broadcast sound superb even via the digital relay, but the system also operates within a tighter bandwidth than CD.

None of which means that vinyl sounds bad, simply that CD can easily match or exceed it's capabilities given a good transfer.

Excellent points Rob.

Facts which can't be argued with although i'm sure some buggers stuck in the last century will try and twist things

 

[D. Lundberg]

I love the way you use 'hardly' meaning that it is sometimes a problem and....

Few players/DACs have jitter at levels where it could be considered a problem, and even then it is minor problem compared to the problems with vinyl playback.

what's right with filling in digits of missing information with non-musical digits?

There are several layers of error correction in cd-playback and the one you're referring to is the last line of defense. It takes some serious surface damage before it's even used.
And in the worst case scenario you'll get some audible glitches (similar to the artefacts in vinyl playback).

meaning that it does sometimes.

Vinyl can technically contain frequencies above 20kHz, but it usually doesn't. And when it does the signal will mostly be buried under the noise floor.

Not to mention that to even play ultrasonic content your pickup, RIAA, amplifier and speakers must be able to handle it.
And then there is the small matter of being able to hear it as well.

But it's a non-issue until we know if reproduction of ultrasonic sound has any importance at all when it comes to music.

I do like this one though.... at what distance?

Depends on the sound pressure level at the source.

what is the whole point behind hi-rez then, if not to push the bandwidth boundary as well?

The whole point of the "hi-rez"-movement was to replace the expiring CD-patents with new copy-protected formats.

It backfired and people went for "lo-res" formats like MP3 and vinyl instead.

I think you'll find that manufacturers are trying to get away from PCM as it's pretty hopeless. DSD is so much better than PCM it's a joke.

First of all: DSD is PCM in every sense of the word.
And second: With modern equipment standard PCM is technically superior to DSD in every way. Not that DSD is bad (it's superior to vinyl ), it's just a bit outdated.

DSD was a good idea when it was introduced 20 years ago, and for the purpose it was intended (archiving old master tapes).

Oh and you forgot to add vinyl to that last bit

If you think you'll need frequency content above 30kHz, you can forget both DSD and vinyl.

 

[Legzr1]

It backfired and people went for "lo-res" formats like MP3 and vinyl instead.

:guiness:

 

[nando]

quote

Excellent points Rob.

Facts which can't be argued with although i'm sure some buggers stuck in the last century will try and twist things

litsen, age nor hiostory of being stuck in the last century has f.all to do with this thred ,get it/ if you want to go on saying that all of us who love vinyl simply because we do has nothing at all to do with preference of technologt, the best selling power amp had the worst specs on paper QUAD 405 furthr more i al;so use server based units , and i worked in recording studios before anyone new what we were doing in the 70's with digital, i stronly object to your very narrow views as saying that we are train spotters, i supose you watch fish lay eggs,
nando.

 

[D. Lundberg]

Whereas CD with it's crappy, limited 16 bit PCM, paint by numbers format is being taken over by a gaming console sound system

I seriously hope you understand that vinyl doesn't even come close to 16 bits (~96dB) of dynamic range.
And "paint by numbers"? I assume you're not familiar with the fundamental Nyquist theorem?

 

[nando]

there we go, are we interested in music or do we just go deaf and listen to FQZ'S might as well look at football in analogue or may be not play ststion is cheaper,
nando.

 

[robM]

I seriously hope you understand that vinyl doesn't even come close to 16 bits (~96dB) of dynamic range.
And "paint by numbers"? I assume you're not familiar with the fundamental Nyquist theorem?

You sound like my old maths teacher.....

Seriously, it's paint by numbers. Do you really think that the Nyquist theorem is going to make any difference to this thread?
You can reel off all manner of theorems but at the day it's not down to theorems is it?

 

[robM]

As an aside....

Name me one CD that has a dynamic range of 96dB... no let's make that even simpler... name me one CD in your entire collection that has a dynamic range of 50dB? As you know as the signal level drops in PCM the bit rate drops also... no so good, because as the bit rate drops the distortion goes UP!!! CD is not 16 bits down to 60dB...it's only 16 bits up towards the 0dB mark. Vinyl on the other hand does not suffer this TERRIBLE problem.

 

[nando]

quote

You sound like my old maths teacher.....

Seriously, it's paint by numbers. Do you really think that the Nyquist theorem is going to make any difference to this thread?
You can reel off all manner of theorems but at the day it's not down to theorems is it?

theorems and practise are to different things, one looks clean the other makes you happy,
nando.

 

[RobHolt]

As an aside....

Name me one CD that has a dynamic range of 96dB... no let's make that even simpler... name me one CD in your entire collection that has a dynamic range of 50dB? As you know as the signal level drops in PCM the bit rate drops also... no so good, because as the bit rate drops the distortion goes UP!!! CD is not 16 bits down to 60dB...it's only 16 bits up towards the 0dB mark. Vinyl on the other hand does not suffer this TERRIBLE problem.

Not really relevant.
Take a modest modern machine form Cyrus, Arcam or Cambridge selling for £500 and you'll get 0.08 THD down at -60db and about 1% down at -80db, which isn't terrible at all really.

I've some blood curdling distortion plots for phono cartridges here somewhere - including yours if you'd like to see it

 

[Tenson]

What a fun thread!

 

[spica]

What a fun thread!

yes, fun..because either way it wouldn't 'seriously' believe it could manipulate a change in individual opinion, "did you hear that ?" "no" "i did" " no you didn't" "what ?" etc etc . Am happy with the difference, mine and others

 

[Legzr1]

I've some blood curdling distortion plots for phono cartridges here somewhere - including yours if you'd like to see it

I'd like to see it

litsen, age nor hiostory of being stuck in the last century has f.all to do with this thred ,get it/ if you want to go on saying that all of us who love vinyl simply because we do has nothing at all to do with preference of technologt, the best selling power amp had the worst specs on paper QUAD 405 furthr more i al;so use server based units , and i worked in recording studios before anyone new what we were doing in the 70's with digital, i stronly object to your very narrow views as saying that we are train spotters, i supose you watch fish lay eggs,
nando."

You call that a rant?


:ffrc:

I know some very nice train spotters - what's your problem with them?

They may have faults but most of them have moved to digital cameras - even they understand sticking with analogue is futile

So,you used to work in recording studios long ago - you know what?
Even before that I was a new born baby - does that make me an expert on midwivery?


:MILD:

Chill grandad

 

[robM]

And quoting THD figures....please!! I have a 1980's Technics integrated amplifier that measures better than your whole system BUT sounds like cr*p. We all know THD figures aren't related to audio reproduction or else Sony, Technics, Aiwa and Kenwood would all be in our main systems.

 

[Purite Audio]

Going right back to the beginning of the thread the pertinent question is how do we get the best out of both ( all ) media.
If you have some nice old analogue records it makes sense to play them on a turntable, although having said that lots of customers have been archiving their vinyl on to 24/192.
To buy modern digital recordings transposed to vinyl does seem a little odd.
Keith.

 

[Mescalito]

Back in 1986 I had an LP12/Ittok/Karma vinyl set up. At the time, it was regarded as one of the best setups & produced a very enjoyable noise (still does, on the very rare occasions when I use it).

I bought a Phillips CD player that year. That year was also the year I bought my last LP.

To me, there was simply no contest. With CDs there was no clicks, pops or background hiss. No end of side distortion, no annoying thickening of the sound as the fluff built up around the stylus & I didn't have to get up every 20 minutes or so to change discs.

Over the years the lead digital enjoys over analog has widened, and now, with the coming of products like the Linn DS series, there simply is no contest or the likelihood of their ever being one.

As soon as I have finished needle dropping the remaining LPs I have not managed to replace with digital copies, the Linn gets sold, And bloody good riddance!

Using vinyl as your major source is akin to insisting on using a slide rule to carry out design calculations. Innacurate and anachronistic.

Chris

 

[robM]

To buy modern digital recordings transposed to vinyl does seem a little odd.

Analogue is a linear system across the bandwidth and at all levels. It does not drop anything from +10dB to -60dB whereas PCM isn't, as the lower you go down in terms of level the less bits you have to play with. By the time the music starts to fade you'll be lucky to have 8 bits running. So if you want to preserve the original signal it's best to put it on to a system that does not 'drop' bits as you get nearer -30dB and below. PCM is not a good system at all. It is a shame the DSD died as that had real potential.

Archiving or transferring to digital is a different conversation altogether as some people do it to get their music on to their iphones (as I do) or squeeze boxes and some do it to free-up physical space. A lot of my collection cannot be bought on CD as it was never transferred over.

 

[Andy 831]

I certainly do not understand most of the electronic terms being used to justify one media over the other on this thread, but to me its very simple.

I have several albums in duplicate format, some are analogue on vinyl with a digital copy on cd. I prefer to listen to the vinyl.

Some are digitally recorded vinyl and digitally recorded cd, Again I prefer to listen to the vinyl.

Having said that I also have music thats not available on vinyl that I certainly would not be without.

So if your ears prefer vinyl thats fine, and if your ears prefer cd thats fine too, simply play what you prefer.

 

[Purite Audio]

Vinyl sounds nice no doubt about it, 2nd level harmonics, I enjoy it ,a bit in valve amps, but if you really want to hear everything you listen to digital, if you design an amp or a loudspeaker you use digital, because you need a reliable and repeatable , uncoloured source .
Keith.