Upgrading from passive to active

Well, I'm not sure quite what to say as BBV has said pretty much what we did. I felt the active system vs. the passive basically sounded more sure of itself. Things were surprisingly less coloured. The mid and high frequencies seemed quicker and more dynamic to me. It was more coherent.

The main thing about the system I thought, was the dynamics. When playing quite loud it seemed as dynamic as a real band. The size and bass extension just made it all that more convincing. Soundstaging was good. Imaging was alright but not the best I have heard (that would be mine :p ).

I did find the mid and high pretty harsh though. I wouldn't want to listen to it for along time.

Adding in the DEQ2496 to correct two suckouts in the bass and a few other small bits made the low end much more consistent and it also seemed slightly tighter. Much better for rocking out!

Adding in the Django preamp made things a lot less harsh. This made it sound a lot better. I could now enjoy some relaxing music on the system as well as heavy rock stuff. Dynamics were even better and there was a fair amount more detail as well.

I think the remaining hard sound was really just from the room, which was pretty bare 1m thick concrete! Some treatment here would help I think. The bass was actually pretty tight considering the emptiness of the room.

All in all, it is one of the better systems I have heard.

I look forward to returning to BBV's to share some music as we have a similar taste I think! Next time I can take my 'real' taste in music rather than the stuff which is usually considered mroe acceptable lol! Maybe BBV can come to my place next time I think it would be good for him to hear what I have the AML1's doing before I sell them on.
 
Trust me Tenson,

that hard sound, is the reason some of us find PMC/Bryston studio setups less than appealing and frankly unconvincing. Going active tends to give you more of the same.

How did you find it compared with Titian's for instance, which of course employs valves for it's amplification?
 
Titian's isn't as hard but is doesn't have quite such a well balanced mid and high frequency, its a tad bright at a certain point I'm not sure of... maybe around 4-6KHz? It works brilliantly for the type of music Titian listens to though.

Nicks set-up could lose that hard sound with the TVC pre and some room treatment. Playing with the Xover would help too I'm sure, we only spent a few minutes on it.

How much better could my appraisal have been? :confused: I would say it's a very good system but a bit hard and could have better imaging. Most peoples systems are far worse! :p
 
I did find the mid and high pretty harsh though. I wouldn't want to listen to it for along time.
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In my book, thats pretty much a fatal negative.

Its not a dig at you btw, its just that after all of the hyperbole that BBV has repeated ad nauseum, one would have though it was the best system ever. Obviously it isnt.
 
Please don't take my negative comments to strongly.
I could find negative things to say about the best systems in the world! It is meant more as constructive criticism. I find it hard to talk about the great points of a system because there isn't a lot to say other than 'it is really good and can't be improved much'.
 
The issue with the mid and the treble is partly due to the concrete walls and ceiling and also the wooden floor. As everyone knows this will give a bright reverberent sound. I have put a rug on the floor but currently all the bookshelves around the walls are empty as I was expecting to move flat a little while ago but didnt, and all my books are currently still packed up. With the damping in place the sound is a lot less harsh. This is an environmental issue and not one related to my kit. At such a time that tenson returns (hopefully soon!) I will have the books back in place. When I move to a permant residence I plan to invite tenson back again to put together a solution both for the bass and the treble. Until then I will have to put up with it as I am in rented accomodation currently.

The other - as tenson pointed out - is due to my pre, which is a diy construction to drive the triamped brystons. I am now committed, as I expected, to changing it to a tvc or passive resistive pre now that I only need a pre with one rather than three sets of balanced outputs and can use a short cable to the crossovers underneath the pre rather than long runs to the power amps.

Tenson also singled out this criticism especially on one particular recording - which is a recording by Shellac of North America and which was recorded to have a very abrasive live sound. With the django it sounded exactly as it did live. We didnt test any other cds after the django was put in place and if we had done so I suggest that the issue Tenson noticed would have been much lessened. Hard cds should sound hard. SM of course would make a hard cd sound soft for preference - I prefer accuracy! Further tweaking of the crossover would of course alter the tonal balance to be more acceptable. As it was we were stuck for time and had quite a lot to do. Once I have the django in that would be a sensible time to revisit the crossover settings.

Due to the failure of my phono stage all tests were carried out via a cheap dvd player into the behringer dac. Had I been able to show off the deck things would also have been quite a bit better.

Not making excuses - just providing a bit more background on the dem for general discussion.

All in all I am quite pleased - all systems have their limitations and to be compared very favourably with Titians system which many seem to think is one of the best going is better than I had hoped for. The sound is vastly improved and the main existing limitations can be solved by buying a django, tweaking the setup and softening the acoustics a bit.

I will be buying a behringer deq next week for my digital chain! Or maybe thorsten can advise me on full digital crossovers...
 
brizonbiovizier said:
Hard cds sound hard.
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Do you honestly think they sit in a mastering suite thinking, "geez that sounds nasty, I couldn't listen to that for long - I think that's our job done"

Tenson is describing the exact sound I attribute to PMC's larger monitors, regardless of the listening enviroment. It's no surprise to me. Real accuracy sounds natural.
 
Note: when we exchanged the speakers we didnt have time to get the positioning right on the townshend platforms. The speakers are currently pointing diffirent angles and one is leaning to one side. Imaging is sure to improve when this is addressed :P

Tenson, dont worry yourself about your comments - even the smallest criticism you make is going to be blown out of all proportion by the lynch mob. I accept all of your comments as fair and flattering.
 
The cd sounded exactly as the band did live which was the engineers intention. The brightness of the room tipped that over the edge though the django did much to moderate that. Personally with the django I could have listened to it all day.
 
Hi,

brizonbiovizier said:
The issue with the mid and the treble is partly due to the concrete walls and ceiling and also the wooden floor. As everyone knows this will give a bright reverberent sound.
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Funny. Seems to be I'm not everyone... :D

Your problem are speakers with a dispersion inapropriate to acostically small rooms that have not been made to approach an anechonic chamber. Stop blaming the room when the faulty component is the speaker.... :D

Also, I think you may find a less etched and more pleasnt sound using almost any other Amp than Bryston.

As for the rest, the DCX2496 from Behringer is more or less a combination of the parametric EQ's from the DEQ and a 3-way stereo X-over. Converters, analog stages etc are basically the same between the two so in most ways what applies to one applies to the other in principle.

Ciao T
 
Stereo Mic said:
Do you honestly think they sit in a mastering suite thinking, "geez that sounds nasty, I couldn't listen to that for long - I think that's our job done"
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To a certain degree, yes!

It is definitely not uncommon for a band to mix something with a very 'hard' sound, as it sounds live as that's what they are used to and probably like. With the type of music we were listening to, it is supposed to sound intense and 'mind blowing'. While it can sound good initially though, it can get very tiring after extended listening. A lot of music is recorded song by song, so it is not always given the thought and consideration it should imo!
 
Its hardly a small room thorsten. 5m wide and 8m long plus maybe another 3m into the kitchen area. Try clapping your hands in the room and you will hear the problem now the walls are bare. No speakers required.

I knew the drubbing I gave your philosophical postings would come back to haunt me. But its ok - I dont mind it from a gent like you. I look forward to returning the favour when I hear your system. :P

I like an etched sound (when its meant to be etched), it just means other amps are less accurate. If its soft the brystons play it soft.

From what Tenson has described I would say he likes Shellac - but not in the large dose he was subjected to! Sorry for playing you the whole album! One thing Tenson picked out was the cymbal delivery which is an Albini trademark - it sounds that way live as well and Tenson admitted he didnt like it live either.
 
Tenson,

there is IME a difference between engineers retaining the raw energy of a performance and hard and unpleasent upper mids.

Mind you, BBV could always investigate a DEQX which has impressed me. It should be able to handle all the crossover duties whilst helping to tame the edge Thorsten attributes to the amps.
 
Tensons writeup was full of qualified praise. I deliberately asked him not to skimp on the criticisms and he has given a just appraisal - I need to change the pre and cover the walls. Hardly a searing indictment, especially through a £200 dvd recorder playing cds.

SM - this was the raw energy of the performance, SLIGHTLY too forward because of the room and because the final setup we did still showed a slight mid and high emphasis remaining. The upper mids were not hard and unpleasant once the django was put in and I will doubtless tweak it further when I get my own.

Even with these minor criticisms Tenson still pointed out it beat his experience of titians system in that respect, and would doubtless have anything bub has ever heard for breakfast.

Bring it on - I expected no less.
 
brizonbiovizier said:
The issue with the mid and the treble is partly due to the concrete walls and ceiling and also the wooden floor. As everyone knows this will give a bright reverberent sound. I have put a rug on the floor
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You are in the same position as me. Your wooden floor will prevent you getting a great sound (full stop).

Its a real irony that £500 on carpets and £2k on hifi would sound better than the £30k (ish) on hifi you've spent with a wooden floor.

Like I said I'm in the same boat so I can't talk.. (except I haven't spent as much.. probably.
 
brizonbiovizier said:
Tensons writeup was full of qualified praise.

Even with these minor criticisms .....[etc]
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I think you are living in a fantasy world, my friend.

As long as you like it, that's all that matters. It's not a competition.
 

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