Why are some MC carts so bloody expensive??

Dynamic Turtle

Dynamic Turtle

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Can someone remind me why some MC phono cartridges cost as much as a good Swiss-made watch? Seriously, I understand its a small market with a fair bit of research, precision micro-engineering and testing involved, but what justifies a £2,000 RRP for a cartridge? You could get a hand-finished Blancpain involving hundreds of hours of (breathtaking) workmanship for that kind of money.

Just appear to very poor value, compared to equivalent examples of precision micro-engineering like mechanical watches.....

DT
 
Maybe some ARE too expensive... :) But you are buying into a dream, aren't you? :JPS:

I do think a comparison with hand-made watches is a good one.
 
Dynamic Turtle said:
I understand its a small market with a fair bit of research, precision micro-engineering and testing involved, but what justifies a £2,000 RRP for a cartridge? You could get a hand-finished Blancpain involving hundreds of hours of (breathtaking) workmanship for that kind of money.DT
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Try buying a Patek Philippe watch - you won't see much change out of twenty grand even for a bottom of the range one - nearer £50K for the nice ones - http://www.jomashop.com/patek-3970ej.html

I think the old saying goes something like 'if you have to ask how much it costs, then you can't afford it'. As with everything in life from cars to footballers, if you want the absolute very best available you end up paying ridiculous sums of money.
 
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unclepuncle said:
Try buying a Patek Philippe watch - you won't see much change out of twenty grand even for a bottom of the range one - nearer £50K for the nice ones - http://www.jomashop.com/patek-3970ej.html

I think the old saying goes something like 'if you have to ask how much it costs, then you can't afford it'. As with everything in life from cars to footballers, if you want the absolute very best available you end up paying ridiculous sums of money.
Click to expand...

OK, this is why I was wary about making a comparison to mechanical watches :rolleyes:

My original question was NOT "Why do some carts cost as much as a Patek", because clearly, they don't! £2k barely gets you a buckle from the Genevoise rip-off merchants these days.

Anyway...

Compared to something more down-to-earth - say a Zenith Elite movement, which comprises 150 odd parts, some hand-finished, which have to be CNC machined, tested, lubricated, assembled & tested, cased, retailed etc. and sells for €2500, MC Carts appear poor value, in a relative context.

Especially so given that they only last 1000 hours, compared to an average service life of 40,000+ hours for a good watch.

Obviously Zenith sells a lot more watches than VdH sells Carts, but hopefully you'll see my POV here. They don't appear to offer VFM on any level....

DT
 
RE: Patek.

"Nice" - meaning a hideous gold xmas tree decoration. About as classy as old, orange, east end gangsters, upon their floating plastic gin palace's.
 
A zenith watch is not an expensive item to produce. Most of the pieces inside are made in a high quantity and the assembly itself does not take long at all.

Mark up wise i'm not sure how much the hifi industry puts on items but a zenith watch your only looking at 40-60% markup (which is low for the jewellery industry, unless the watches are grey imports), i would assume the markup on high end MC's is more.

Take for example a Vdh cartridge. You are paying for one man to hand make one cartridge at a time or a few in a batch. It does take him a long time and the parts aren't as cheap as you might think. Now think of a watch maker (can't remember the name) lives on a channel island somewhere. He makes watches by hand almost always individually and sometimes in batch's. They sell for massive amounts of money.

I know you didn't want people to compare brands and money of different brands but... If you think of it like that:
They all tell the time. Some just cost 500 times as much as others.
Same with MC's they all play music.

But we know that some sound better than others. Just as a more expensive watch will last longer be made of better parts etc. Watches and MC's all have there reasons why some cost more than others. I find it unlikely that the makers just add massive markups purely because it's an expensive item. It is usually the opposite as the can allow slightly lower markups on more expensive items.
 
some times i agree tht most of m.c. carts are overpriced, but there is a marketing device by manufacturers of small facturys who do sell carts cheap for anybody to add a name and looks i.e. "nice" looks and sell them expensivly,audio tech are super to me they always have , shure, as m.m. ortofon make so very good m.c's at a reasonable price, but why do people drive ferraris in a 30 mile zone, reswt my case, regards.
 
nando said:
... shure, as m.m. ortofon make so very good m.c's at a reasonable price, but why do people drive ferraris in a 30 mile zone, reswt my case, regards.
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Maybe for you it is a ferrari in a 30 mile zone for others it is something completely different which they can exploit much better.
They are cartridges for over £5000 and people buy them.
Mostly these people have also expensive TT and arms. Also the rest of the Hifi is expensive so that the difference of price between such an expensive cartridge and a cheaper one doesn't make much of a difference.
Certainly the sound difference is not so huge, which would justify for many people the price difference but for some persons even a slight sound difference could be very valuble for them, therefore they would accept the (over)price.
 
Dom_ said:
Now think of a watch maker (can't remember the name) lives on a channel island somewhere. He makes watches by hand almost always individually and sometimes in batch's. They sell for massive amounts of money.
Click to expand...

Probably Dr. George Daniels, the world's greatest living watchmaker.
 
Dynamic Turtle said:
Can someone remind me why some MC phono cartridges cost as much as a good Swiss-made watch? Seriously, I understand its a small market with a fair bit of research, precision micro-engineering and testing involved, but what justifies a £2,000 RRP for a cartridge? You could get a hand-finished Blancpain involving hundreds of hours of (breathtaking) workmanship for that kind of money.

Just appear to very poor value, compared to equivalent examples of precision micro-engineering like mechanical watches.....

DT
Click to expand...

I can give you examples from my days of going through retailers and distributors.

I am not sure all manufacturers are the same but we marked up 100% against component cost plus a nominal allowance for labour.

So £50 components - £20 labour = £70 = UK trade £140. The retailer then marked up 100% and discounted from that. So retail price would be £280 until you haggled. You should always haggle :rolleyes: Remember sales tax or vat on top.

For export sales there was a 20% discount on UK trade price, so same item £112. He would then sell it on to retailers usually for a 50% mark up (£168) for far east, 100% mark up (£224) for most European countries. Dealers would then mark up anywhere between 30 to 100% depending on which part of the world.

So that same product could be bought in say Hong Kong for less than £200 where as in UK for £280. Confused !! :(

Do you see where I am heading??

Some specialist UK distributors mark up *over* 100% and then their appointed dealers another 100% of that already doubled price, so your cartridge suddenly gets spectacularly expensive. The same as for watches.

In my latest nva re-incarnation I cannot be bothered with this ridiculous merry-go-round. Especially as with a large number of dealers not only did they want 100% but they also only wanted to pay you when they sold it :confused: Though there were good genuine ones, but not many.

Life for me is now so simple as I only sell direct and that same £70 cost product now has a retail of £160, I get paid immediately, simple operation and next to no hassle.

Life is now so much easier and I wouldn't have restarted manufacture without this simplicity. What has made this possible - ebay - I know you have to see past all the rubbish and fraud but with common sense there is no where better to buy, it is just a pity they have no competition yet. Are the days of the overpriced retailer and over profited distributor dying? You lot will decide :D

Richard
 
I've no idea what the sales volumes are for some of these expensive cartridges, but strongly suspect that the overhead of supplying review samples to high-profile reviewers is a factor in the cost.
 
Life is now so much easier and I wouldn't have restarted manufacture without this simplicity. What has made this possible - ebay - I know you have to see past all the rubbish and fraud but with common sense there is no where better to buy, it is just a pity they have no competition yet. Are the days of the overpriced retailer and over profited distributor dying? You lot will decide
Click to expand...

Ebay is a great market place in which to both buy and sell, as long as sensible preciations are taken.

However, your (& others) methods of direct only sales means that demonstrations/trials are not possible. OK, you have a sale or return policy, which is a good compromise, but many others selling directly don't. Most people would agree that a demonstration, preferably a home trial, is a crucial part of component selection. This relies on having dealers. If dealers cannot make a reasonable return on their investment and/or make a half decent living as result of having to compete with the direct sales channel that has a tiny overhead (in comparison), then they will close. This can already be seen in the number of people who get a dem and then buy from the cheapest source they can find (possibly worldwide). This will eventually lead to no, or very few dealers, with all sales being direct and (mostly) unheard.
 
Dick Bowman said:
I've no idea what the sales volumes are for some of these expensive cartridges, but strongly suspect that the overhead of supplying review samples to high-profile reviewers is a factor in the cost.
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They are loan, you normally get them back, quite often it is the same ones that are used at shows, your demonstration stock. If it becomes part of their reference system the loan can be extended. Though some reviewers insist on paying, but they do get a good price.

Richard
 
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unclepuncle said:
Try buying a Patek Philippe watch - you won't see much change out of twenty grand even for a bottom of the range one - nearer £50K for the nice ones - http://www.jomashop.com/patek-3970ej.html
Click to expand...

Why muck about with this cheap stuff? This
http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/cl...lippe/collections/star-caliber-2000/index.htm
is where the action is. Just have your $US7.5 million ready.
(I've actually seen these at the annual Basler Uhrenmesse, the industry's big bash. I'm not sure who has a pocket that size, never mind four).
 
linearman,
your statutory rights are that you have 7 days to reject anything bought 'at a distance' for any reason you like. now 7 days isn;t long but it's usually enough to decide if you like something or not. also if it's a choice between a sale and nothing most direct sellers would probably be willing to extend this if aproached correctly.
the only area where this falls down is when dealing with international distance selling. then it's very definately caveat emptor. i'd be inclined to use a uk importer for this then your contract is with them not a foreign company - thus uk selling regs apply.
cheers


julian
 
LinearMan said:
Ebay is a great market place in which to both buy and sell, as long as sensible preciations are taken.

However, your (& others) methods of direct only sales means that demonstrations/trials are not possible. OK, you have a sale or return policy, which is a good compromise, but many others selling directly don't. Most people would agree that a demonstration, preferably a home trial, is a crucial part of component selection. This relies on having dealers. If dealers cannot make a reasonable return on their investment and/or make a half decent living as result of having to compete with the direct sales channel that has a tiny overhead (in comparison), then they will close. This can already be seen in the number of people who get a dem and then buy from the cheapest source they can find (possibly worldwide). This will eventually lead to no, or very few dealers, with all sales being direct and (mostly) unheard.
Click to expand...

There are some retailer that provide an excellent service to their customers and suppliers, but in my experience they are a minority.

It is a fact of life that as time goes by retailing will become more and more of a dinosaur activity as more and more goes on line. Supermarkets and everyone are moving this way. According to survey electronics is one of the fastest moving in this aspect, look at Dell for example.

The customer dictates ultimately, if you insist on home trial or return if not satisfied you will get it. It already applies to most new product on line and only second hand normally has no return policy and this is understandable.

Richard
 
julian2002 said:
linearman,
your statutory rights are that you have 7 days to reject anything bought 'at a distance' for any reason you like. now 7 days isn;t long but it's usually enough to decide if you like something or not. also if it's a choice between a sale and nothing most direct sellers would probably be willing to extend this if aproached correctly.
the only area where this falls down is when dealing with international distance selling. then it's very definately caveat emptor. i'd be inclined to use a uk importer for this then your contract is with them not a foreign company - thus uk selling regs apply.
cheers


julian
Click to expand...


True enough. But it's still a load of hassle and suppose they don't refund your money, or say that it's been returned in a not as new condition (I have some extensive experience in this area!), etc? Sure, you can sue, but what a pain.

It's much easier and more pleasurable to use a dealer. And you can easily compare and contrast. It would take an awful long while and extensive hassle factor to do that by the route you're proposing. OK, if you don't want to use a dealer to (apparently) save a few quid, then don't. But no moaning that dems are not possible;)

Richard's post does bring a smile to the lips. He seems to be moaning that retailers mark up by 100% (always be careful not to confuse mark up with margin), yet he freely admits to using a 128% mark up himself!
 

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