NO NO To The Euro

[julian2002]

I don't know why you feel you have any duty to help "slow the decline" of the UK. If you like it, fine. If you don't, get out and enjoy your life somewhere else. Everyone has a right to live, work and retire wherever they feel like if they have the means to do so. If the UK is not an attractive place to live, work and retire then it's no one's duty to stay there, it's the UK's duty to make it more attractive.

michael,
countries are not geography they are the people that live there. the 'UK' has no duty to improve itself. the people who live there have that particular duty. those that run away and discard that duty are at best selfish fools and if everyone had that attitude then the uk would indeed end up as paul describes. hopefully there are people who care about more than making a fast buck and then bogging off but then that's what globaloisation and capitalism are all about... **** your fellow man eh?

as for immigration i'm all for it. as long as those joining the uk are able to contribute positively towards making the uk a better place (in however small a way) and aren;t a drag on the country's resources.

cheers


julian

 

[PBirkett]

Originally posted by michaelab
Whatever Paul - it's clear you don't get it Just be grateful you weren't born in any of the countries where these desperate people come from.

Michael.

My last word on the matter is this: If they came here to make an honest living, then I wouldnt mind as much. Some do, some dont. However, it is no accident that crime is rising and that a lot of it is to do with our vagrant "friends". And unfortunately, the way of the world is to tar all with the same brush.

Cookie, I agree mate, the potential debate is exhausting just to comprehend, and I cant be bothered either really. This is a discussion board and we are all allowed to view our opinions, as I have done. I dont suppose that anyone is going to change their views about anything (the MP3 debate is just one - people write em off without trying). These disagreements happen in all areas, and in all discussions on this and every other forum on the internet.

Mike, I didnt set out to offend with my above comments, but this is simply how I see things panning out, and I would be surprised if they didnt pan out that way TBH.

ATB.

 

[voodoo]

Originally posted by michaelab
I believe the same is true for Voodoo (he'll correct me if I'm wrong). I'm paying taxes here in Portugal and I have a private pension and other investments so you needn't worry about me being a "parasite" on the UK

You're pretty much right there Michael. I was 20 when I left (just over 5 and 1/2 years ago now) and really did it because there was a an opportunity to escape the confines of the UK. It really opens your eyes up when you move away and see how different life can be. I have a pretty good pension scheme and some investments as well (only I could invest on Sept 4th 2001 :cry: ) with most of my national contributions being over here. I could have claimed the doll in the UK when I was 18 but never did and the Inland Revenue owe me a few hundred in tax anyway - I'm no sponger :MILD: .

The important thing is if you are happy with where you live. If you're not then you have to make a decision. I'm happy here and I'm sure most of you are happy where you are. The future is not particularly clear for any of us regardless of where we are situated so it's best just to turn the hi-fi on and get onto important matters like how much can I save by buying power cords from the UK and paying in Euros ?

 

[michaelab]

Originally posted by julian2002
countries are not geography they are the people that live there. the 'UK' has no duty to improve itself. the people who live there have that particular duty. those that run away and discard that duty are at best selfish fools and if everyone had that attitude then the uk would indeed end up as paul describes. hopefully there are people who care about more than making a fast buck and then bogging off but then that's what globaloisation and capitalism are all about... **** your fellow man eh?

Jules - you misunderstood me. By saying the "UK" has a duty to improve itself I meant of course everyone who lives there, the government and everything else.

I take issue with you implying that I "ran away" or that I left the UK for any selfish reason. Just because I was born in the UK doesn't impose on me any duty to live there for the rest of my life or to make it a better place. The fact that I didn't live there until I was 18 makes it even less so. I went to a private school in the UK (age 11-18) which my parents paid for so I didn't even have my education paid for by UK taxpayers. If my parents had known in advance they were going to be in Paris for as long as they were then I would have gone to school there - it had nothing to do with "getting a private British education". I went to university in Bristol but wasn't eligible for a grant allthough I did have my tuition fees paid. At 25 I was ready to move to France when I met my future wife who is Portuguese. We lived together in London for a bit because it was by far the easiest option at that time but always planned to make our home in Portugal, which, in 2000, we did. If I choose to make my home in Portugal and contribute to society, pay taxes and all the rest of it here then I'm free to do so and so is anyone else. I did not "make a fast buck" and then retire in the sun as you seem to be implying.

My duty is to be a citizen of the world and to try, in any way I may be able, to make the world as I see it a better place. The choices I have made are not "fucking my fellow man" in any way.

Michael.

 

[cookiemonster]

My duty is to be a citizen of the world and to try, in any way I may be able, to make the world as I see it a better place. The choices I have made are not "fucking my fellow man" in any way.

For those that have not met Micheal, this is he, pictured below. It's amazing how such a relaxed pose can be attained, wearing leather.

 

[michaelab]

where do you drag that stuff up Dino?
Michael.

 

[wadia-miester]

Hey, I've been missing this
I do feel we need closer tie's with europe, both politicaly and socialy, however one big missmash of back handing, jolly loving bent eurocrates aint the way to do it.
Now then 'our esteamed' partners in EURO Happy land , do tend to put up the rules and expect all others to uphold them yet, don't bother with them?
Take France and Germany, they set a target ' rate of X % for the inflation to join the 'party', humm both of them failed to met it by a long way, and they proceeded to 'Fudge' the issue at subsequent euro punch ups.... sorry conferenices
Now my step dad owns a Hotel in Perigo in the Doridong, charming place in France, full of Charactor and English people (in fact more brits than french by 8 to 1 in that region)
How can you tell, look at the houses, they freshly spurced up and neat, not too diffficult to tell in France don't get me wrong I'm not knocking it, the locals are great/friendly/warm and gracious
Now He (my step dad) gets his fresh meet from ythe local Butcher (quality stuff too), but it's all hanging freshly slaughtered in the FRONT shop window, do that here and the butcher would be closed down and prosocuted and had 15 envoriomental health officers down on him with a closure notice in 4 seconds flat
I can cite plenty more examples, but you get my jist
We do need to trade more freely and have less barriers for sure, no doubt, but the seekers of an easy run, the common aggy policy and the eyrocrates must be kicked into touch, no shite cards in the table, until then most of us will remain Euro sceptics I feel. Tone

 

[wadia-miester]

Originally posted by michaelab
where do you drag that stuff up Dino?
Michael.

"Bored traveller seeks, mental stimualtion and enlightment see, cirrus alpha 5, not on tuesdays, (day off)"

 

[cookiemonster]

I don't believe any of you have met Paul? This is he, pictured below, on a recent research trip, investigating possible solutions to the recent influx of 'vagrants' to the country.

 

[PBirkett]

PMSL!!

On that note, I'm off for a pint.

 

[cookiemonster]

And this is Julian, suitably pissed, at a recent interview, when questioned about his attitude toward emigres. The interviewer also drove a BMW i am reliably informed, which compounded the apparent indignation.

 

[michaelab]

A few cans and bottles left over from the wedding that needed "cleaning up" were there Dino?

Michael.

 

[julian2002]

nice one dino but that guy is much better looking and happier than i am!

michael,
not being aware of your personal situation i probably should have wound my neck in a bit but reading your post it could be construed that you endorse getting the medical, educational and social benefits of being brought up in the uk and then leaving the country without giving anything back, sorry but i do have to take issue with this sort of thinking. if it wasn;t your intent to imply this then i apologise.

cheers


julian

 

[michaelab]

Jules - no worries mate, it's all just friendly banter I hope. This thread illustrates why I'm reluctant to debate these kinds of things in forums - it can lead to all kinds of hot headedness (I'm including myself) between people who otherwise get on just fine

About people being brought up in the UK (or anywhere else) and getting all the benefits that country may provide and then choosing to live somewhere else I really don't see a problem with it. We're generally not free to choose where we live until aged around 18 or so so I don't think we should feel duty bound to "give back" anything for our life in the country up to that point. I moved to Portugal, but there are plenty (probably many more in fact) Portuguese who move to the UK. These kinds of things will probably balance out. On the whole the number of people moving is very small compared to the total population in any country.

To put it another way, I no more have a duty to stay in the UK than someone born in Manchester has a duty so stay there instead of moving to London if that's what they want. One of the key things about the EU (even one of the bits that Thatcher agreed with ) is the free movement of people, jobs and trade.

Michael.

 

[Dev]

Originally posted by michaelab
To put it another way, I no more have a duty to stay in the UK than someone born in Manchester has a duty so stay there instead of moving to London if that's what they want.
Michael.

And risk running into Man U fans?

 

[Mark67]

michaelab said

My dream would be for a federal United States of Europe. Someone needs to be able to provide credible opposition to the USAs economic and military ultra right wing steamroller.

Which one of the reasons why we should vote against the Euro when we get the chance.

michaelab said

That the UK has consistently (at least since 1979) done it's best to slow down, water down or otherwise sabotage the EU process is something that makes me intensely angry.

Well at least we can thank Mrs Thatcher for one thing. The amount of money this country gives to the EU is shamefull. Thier are other countrys who take more out than they put in. These are the ones who are YES YES to the euro.

Lets get out before we are dragged into Police state.

And I thought this had been a quite post .

 

[michaelab]

Nice to see you come back into the fray with some well reasoned arguments Mark... :cry:

Michael.

 

[Graham C]

I think my reply to Dev [which was specifically about retiring] is in danger of over-egging the pudding. I stand by my suggestion that there should be a dis-incentive for UK people to retire abroad. I wouldn't suggest it should be illegal, but in 10 years the bleeding of the UK welfare pot will be disastrous, and it was a decision made for us by the EU [to index link UK pensions anywhere in the EU].

Of course it suits all the other EU countries since we are emigrating with UK dosh from us to them.

I am quite suprised that Michael thinks there may be equal-ish numbers coming from Portugal to the UK, though I have no evidence to dispute it, if he thinks its true, I just feel it's unlikely..

In case I am getting off on the wrong foot with Michael, Voodoo and all, I can say have no axe to grind with people who emigrate. Good luck to you all. But those who choose to leave the UK are biased eg:

The "no" supporters simply trot out the same old tired nationalist rubbish about sovereignty and "giving up control to Brussels"

Well I'm sorry, but leaving the UK for a sunny climate does not make people more cosmopolitan [though you have experienced more] than those you leave behind. And those who are unhappy with the EU are not anti-european.

Why should "giving up controls to Brussels" be a good thing for the UK? In 40 odd years they have refused to sort out the Common Agricultural Policy et al. Belgium does nicely out of 1000s of Euro-MPs with their £500k expense allowances, Eire is a country transformed by the EU, but how does the UK benefit?

I'm sure Ford would be happy to get rid of the tiresome currency conversion so that they can make more dosh sending those Fiestas over from Spain. If the UK can trade worldwide, maybe we have a chance [well, that would be if we still made something to sell..!] - but tied to the fortunes of the EU winners? I can't see how we can benefit. Of course, we may end up being blackmailed into joining by multi-national companies and if we do - cest la vie!

I also have to back up what Paul was saying and can only say that if you havent seen the problems, you won't appreciate why he says things. Cities like Bristol are turning into Bandit country with migrants. It doesnt matter if it is 10% or 1% of asylum seekers/migrants that cause grief, In parts of the UK it is out of control, unchecked and is causing huge problems, and without them there would be less problems.

Roll on UK ID cards I reckon

 

[michaelab]

Originally posted by Graham C
I am quite suprised that Michael thinks there may be equal-ish numbers coming from Portugal to the UK, though I have no evidence to dispute it, if he thinks its true, I just feel it's unlikely..

I'm not talking about Portuguese people retiring to the UK but there are a lot of Portuguese immigrants working in the UK, London in particular.

Michael.

 

[cookiemonster]

I no more have a duty to stay in the UK than someone born in Manchester has a duty so stay there instead of moving to London if that's what they want.

Phew - i've been exonerated! If it helps my case, i didn't particularly want to either

I also have to back up what Paul was saying and can only say that if you havent seen the problems, you won't appreciate why he says things. Cities like Bristol are turning into Bandit country with migrants. It doesnt matter if it is 10% or 1% of asylum seekers/migrants that cause grief, In parts of the UK it is out of control, unchecked and is causing huge problems, and without them there would be less problems.

To turn the situation on its head - would it not be plausible that if the UK were less prosperous and fertile, and relatively less salubrious than its global counterparts, that UK residents would feel an urge to emigrate to those respective countries, whether through urgency and necessity or otherwise. In which case these arguments wouldn't be forwarded so ardently i imagine, when the proverbial shoe is on the other foot. Is it arguable that this type of reasoning bereft of any genuine empathy is in fact more akin to 'fucking your fellow man'? And without going to deeply into politics or the inherent problems with the existing status quo - i would imagine that it is not altogether easy for an immigrant into this country, legal or otherwise, to attain genuine well paid employment with the equal opportunities afforded the birth rite of the countries citizens (also arguable - but for the sake of this argument), through various contributing factors, facilitated by government constraints and social prejudice. In which case the likelihood of these people resorting to less acceptable means of acquiring money or legal forms of employment is greater than the gargantuan numbers of UK 'citizens' who scam their fellow countrymen and its government?


Is it no more profitable for Man, as opposed to a few men, to try and curtail the bleeding, rather than stick a futile plaster on it.

My dream would be for a federal United States of Europe. Someone needs to be able to provide credible opposition to the USAs economic and military ultra right wing steamroller.

In fairness Michael - i think this approach in reasoning to the justification of what is an excellent idea, weakens your argument, if in fact it is intended in a more humanitarian ethos for future societies, as i perceive your intention to be, rightly or wrongly?. In the long term, there is the potential that the centre of power would ony swing back over the Atlantic, with the 'economic and military ultra right wing steamroller' only changing in geography rather than withering away?

Well at least we can thank Mrs Thatcher for one thing. The amount of money this country gives to the EU is shamefull. Thier are other countrys who take more out than they put in. These are the ones who are YES YES to the euro.

Do you take a calculator to restaurants Mark?

Thought of the day:

have less barriers

Where is that damn cirrus alpha 5?!