Planning to buy an entirely new system.

[cooky1257]

Its a medical fact that as people get older they lack the ability to hear the full range of frequency that they were able too at a younger age!

Ah so 'better ' cables have a wider frequency range then is that it?
If you look at the freq/energy distribution in an audio signal you'll see that the extreme top end amounts to four fifths of f**k all, if you also consider how the hearing mechanism actually works the ability to hear pure tones tells you very little about aural perception-the ear/brain being very sensitive (because there's 2!) to phase differences for example and bone conduction plays a large part too.
I'm of the opinion that cable differences exist but baring the extreme inductive or capacitive types they are subtle and never jaw dropping.
I run my system fully balanced, active tri amped using NVA LS1 and Belkin high performance hybrid conductor technology pcocc cables(because they were £5 in TK Maxx!!)

 

[gargal]

I certainly think it's possible for an entire industry to spring up to cater to altering people's subjective experiences through purely psychological means.

Just look at the state I got into listening to different sub settings - and this was definitely making a real difference to the sound being produced. My experience was quite different between when I knew what was going on, and when I blind tested with my g/f trying different settings. It's not that I couldn't tell there were differences, but that which difference I preferred and how the hi-fi sounded, really was quite altered.

We could get into possible evolutionary explanations for why it would be advantageous to have our subjective experience be unconsciously altered according to our expectations and beliefs - there have been a lot of experiments on people's perception of fine wines (more wine drinkers than audiophiles amongst the psychologists?) that would seem to support this too.

That's not to say there aren't real objective benefits from spending more on cables, just that there may not be. I really don't know. My girlfriend wants white ones though!

You'd hope we could just placebo ourselves into enjoying our music more, and save all this hi-fi money!

My speakers came with a tinned inter-connect for the hi and lo inputs, so maybe I shouldn't go for bi-wiring. Drat: I read one reviewer saying how much tighter and detailed the bass sounded after bi-wiring - I was rather hoping that would be true.

 

[danworth81]

Ah so 'better ' cables have a wider frequency range then is that it?
If you look at the freq/energy distribution in an audio signal you'll see that the extreme top end amounts to four fifths of f**k all, if you also consider how the hearing mechanism actually works the ability to hear pure tones tells you very little about aural perception-the ear/brain being very sensitive (because there's 2!) to phase differences for example and bone conduction plays a large part too.
I'm of the opinion that cable differences exist but baring the extreme inductive or capacitive types they are subtle and never jaw dropping.
I run my system fully balanced, active tri amped using NVA LS1 and Belkin high performance hybrid conductor technology pcocc cables(because they were £5 in TK Maxx!!)

I was not talking about cables frequencies simply about human hearing ability and its degredation when getting older

Subtletys are also dependant on the person, my hearing for instance is amazing as my eyes are on the verge of tatal blindness within the next couple years! I guess they are enhanced due to this I can be playing music loud and here footsteps coming to my front door and open it before someone arrives its that good, so maybe im one of the few who can tell the differences in cables more than others.

 

[cooky1257]

I was not talking about cables frequencies simply about human hearing ability and its degredation when getting older

Sorry yes you were, you have conflated the slow reduction in the ability to hear extreme HF as we age to the ability to discern cable differences-you did so in your response to Robs skepticism re cables.

 

[danworth81]

My girlfriend wants white ones though!

You'd hope we could just placebo ourselves into enjoying our music more, and save all this hi-fi money!

My speakers came with a tinned inter-connect for the hi and lo inputs, so maybe I shouldn't go for bi-wiring. Drat: I read one reviewer saying how much tighter and detailed the bass sounded after bi-wiring - I was rather hoping that would be true.

lol! I wonder if we were told white ones were better they would sound better with placebo!

Also when u say about the differences and what actually sounds better is a massive point, people can refer to this as colouration in cables terms, u could have plenty of different cables and the differences would not equal better or not just different.

In my current system I have tried LFD which was bland boring muffled muddy and as if though I was listening behind a sheet of glass, Nordost an obvious harsh top end good soundstage and ok seperation. Abbey Road not very wide soundstage but good pin pointing of instruments and singer within its width. Then I got some Deltec and its incredible, a wide open tall soundstage with excellent dynamics and space its warm smooth and highly detailed, its made me wanna listen to music more!

Honestly though hand on heart if I could have a cable for a couple quid that would do the job the same I would I dont like throwing money away and im not an idiot! I wouldnt let a price or review decieve or change my feelings about a product I think proof has to be in the pudding!

 

[gargal]

Honestly though hand on heart if I could have a cable for a couple quid that would do the job the same I would I dont like throwing money away and im not an idiot! I wouldnt let a price or review decieve or change my feelings about a product I think proof has to be in the pudding!

It's not about being an idiot. I think I remember reading that those with higher IQs tend to be more susceptible to being swayed by their expectations (all this altering of perceptions requires an able brain!). I think that we're all swayed by these things to some extent, but that doesn't mean that there are no real differences to be noticed either.

I have to admit to being disappointed that bi-wiring isn't going to bring my speaker's bass under control - maybe I should try it anyway, and see if I can manipulate myself! Apparently the Dali's particularly benefit from some placebo.

 

[danworth81]

Very funny!

If I were u I would just get some decent jumpers and replace the bars, I use jumpers with my speakers and if I put the cable into the two top posts from the amp I get a different sound from if I put them in the bottom 2, take off the bars and just put small bits of ur gale cable in their place instead and listen.

The cables I mentioned in the last post were priced in order of quality aswell I wish they wernt and I wish I could tell u they wernt but I have to be honest, the LFD was £80 a meter the Nordost was £90 a meter the Abbey Road was £100 a meter and the Deltec was £300 a meter.

I think its rediculous the prices of cables and most of them just shoot off a great big wheel!! Its like printing money.

If I ever win the lottery I think I should make it my lifes goal to reduce the price of decent hifi, lets face it, its all got rediculous!

 

[gargal]

Granted those cables aren't particularly expensive but the ones currently in use are more than fit for the job, so no money need be spent in that department.

Not too sure about that Rob.

My current speaker cables have gone through about three different set ups, with me cutting an adapting the cabling each time. I need some new stuff.

the Deltec was £300 a meter.

*gulp*

I hope your speakers were very close to your amp!






What would the speaker wire sceptics suggest? How cheap would you go? What terminators would you use?

Is really thin stuff really just as good? I'm really interested in some links to what the true sceptics would buy. If I was to get Chord Carnival SilverScreen with terminators, that would still be £80 with postage. Would I be better off just popping down the hardware shop and spending a tenner? Or the ones Dan suggested would only be about £90? Would you go for mains cable (http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=83&C=Froogle&U=83&T=Module)?

Or do you only get sceptical once you've already got fairly expensive stuff anyway?

Ta.

PS: Remember this is all mainly about helping me get a good hi-fi. These boisterous games of yours must not distract us!

 

[cooky1257]

Mains t&e, van damme 4mm, mogami, any 79 strand. Quad use 2 core mains cables in their demo's I believe.
Soggy bass isn't down to your cables.

 

[danworth81]

*gulp*

I hope your speakers were very close to your amp!

4 meters a side Im afraid!

I have some brand new chord rumour cable its the install version so its thin black and white twisted (its silver plated copper which has a tight braid to it so it almost feels solid coated in teflon) I can do u a 4 meter pair with bananas soldered on with silver solder and I can make a set of jumpers the same way, I can do u it for £60 incl post if u dont like it u can send it back and I'll refund u minus the post, but obviously with a new cable it will need time to burn in!

As for mains cables u can use Belden for best results at a good price a mate of mine Dave owns www.mainscablesrus.co.uk he does a range of cables furutech, belden, lapp, black rhodium, nordost he can make them to measure also and I think his cables are pretty well priced so have a nose.

I use the thicker 12 gauge version of the chord rumour for all my mains cables (rated at 40amps) and have wired a 6 gang extension with it and have a mains spur with it too, u can actually use the rumour for mains cables as it is rated upto 30amps u just need to twist a third wire around and attach plugs.

 

[danworth81]

Also rig ur sub on seperate cables from the amp and put a paving slab under it, it will tighten up massively!

 

[RobHolt]

Not too sure about that Rob.

My current speaker cables have gone through about three different set ups, with me cutting an adapting the cabling each time. I need some new stuff.



*gulp*

I hope your speakers were very close to your amp!






What would the speaker wire sceptics suggest? How cheap would you go? What terminators would you use?

Is really thin stuff really just as good? I'm really interested in some links to what the true sceptics would buy. If I was to get Chord Carnival SilverScreen with terminators, that would still be £80 with postage. Would I be better off just popping down the hardware shop and spending a tenner? Or the ones Dan suggested would only be about £90? Would you go for mains cable (http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=83&C=Froogle&U=83&T=Module)?

Or do you only get sceptical once you've already got fairly expensive stuff anyway?

Ta.

PS: Remember this is all mainly about helping me get a good hi-fi. These boisterous games of yours must not distract us!

Cooky's suggestions are good.
79 strand is perfectly good for just about any situation as it is electrically benign - low series resistance, and moderate levels of capacitance in the usually encountered lengths. Where we looking to transfer RF I might suggest something else but we aren't - the audio frequency range is very easy to transfer with bog standard wire.

Avoid very thin cable.
Anything thinner than standard mains flex is probably not a good idea as resistance goes up and this can subtly alter the sound with some speakers.

 

[Labarum]

In Germany go to any DIY centre or even a large supermarket at you will see two sorts of speaker cable on sale by the metre - 2 sq mm (79 strand) and 4 sq mm for more demanding systems or longer runs. It's all that is needed.

In UK go to Maplins.

 

[gargal]

its thin black and white twisted

Thanks Dan, but I really have promised my g/f we'll get white cable.

Currently we've got multi-colour wires hanging all over the place, and this is a good time to try to tidy it all up.



I've just dug out some old speaker wire my dad gave me. It's pretty thin, about 1.5 mm diameter for the copper bit. I might try and blind test that against the thicker stuff I'm using at the moment (I've only got enough if I have my amp right in the middle of my speakers, under the TV, but I can manage like that for a while).

@ The sceptics who still say 'avoid really thin': is 1.5 mm too thin for you? Or is this likely to cause problems.

What about shielding too - won't power cords/different speaker cables end up interfering with each other?

If I do go for a Leema Pulse, I'll have a play then.

 

[danworth81]

Ok but if u listen to the sceptics u wont get as much out of ur system, we had a poll on the wigwam as to whether cables made a difference and they i's won it, dont be decieved by the people who talk about capaticance and the laws of physics do some real testing and work it out for urself!! If ur not deaf that is!

 

[RobHolt]

1.5mm is a bit thin but ok for a short run IMO.

On the mains and speaker cables interacting - well try it
Run one of your speaker cables alongside a power line, or even lightly twist them together.
With no music playing place your ear to the speaker with the volume way up and listen to the noise. It will be no different with the cables close or far apart and that is all that matters. If an effect is totally inaudible then it clearly doesn't matter.

Best advice I can give is to stop fretting about the cables and look at making some real improvements by auditioning a number of system components, including the Leema and anything else that takes your fancy.
Once you've arrived at a system you enjoy, choose your cabling to suit practical considerations. Flat for under the carpet, colour to blend with the decor etc.
Unless you choose cables that are decidedly odd in terms of construction you cannot go wrong.

 

[cooky1257]

So you can take advice from whoever you choose-it's your money.
Then again some of us have very high calibre systems/loudspeakers performing to the limits of their capability using sensible cables and happy to trust their ears. You could trust the ears of someone who hooks up £700 speakers with £1200 cables. Now any one should realise that a change of loudspeaker would have produced a much more significant change in the sound than the cables so this practice/advice defies common sense- if you're not deaf that is;-)

 

[RobHolt]

Ok but if u listen to the sceptics u wont get as much out of ur system, we had a poll on the wigwam as to whether cables made a difference and they i's won it, dont be decieved by the people who talk about capaticance and the laws of physics do some real testing and work it out for urself!! If ur not deaf that is!

Such cursory dismissal of science........ shocking!

Forum polls asking 'do you think that cables can sound different' pop up from time to time.
They are completely meaningless where no qualifications are attached to the question. They will and should always produce a positive result and those asking the questions are only too aware of the reasons why.

The acid test is to ask a group to listen to a range of cables under controlled conditions and ask them to pick what they previously thought was a distinctively 'flavoured' cable from the group. I've yet to see anyone succeed and I've seen this test many times now using a range of equipment.
Of course we did our own blind interconnect test on ZeroGain last year and listeners overwhelmingly couldn't tell a Chord silver interconnect from a range of others - including quite literally a string of old crap consisting of paper clips, sweet wrappers and other assorted dirty metals strung together. That kind of puts the whole cable question into proper perspective.

It is important that people new to hi-fi or those just looking for simple system advice are not taken in by the false arguments and false promises or the cable gurus.
The actions of many cable sellers are indefensible IMO and they deserve to be attacked at every turn unless what they offer avoids the OTT claims and offers good material value. Many others, the general audio enthusiast, are clearly not in the same boat at all.
Here it is simply a case of human fallibility - the inability to completely divorce the information produced by the ears from that generated by the eyes and by thought through expectation.
Demonstrating that these very real failings exist is the best way to make audio enthusiasts appreciate and separate the real from the imaginary and that can only be a good thing.

 

[gargal]

1.5mm is a bit thin but ok for a short run IMO.

Drat... That was going to be my way of doing a blind test without paying anything.

Even that Maplin stuff would cost a bit with postage and stuff - and I'd be sure to miss out on placebo joy! I'm thinking of popping to sevenoaks tomorrow, I'll ask them if they have any cheap cable they keep under the counter for the sceptics.

Maybe they'll offer me premium stuff for free just to keep me quiet ?

re:

Ok but if u listen to the sceptics u wont get as much out of ur system, we had a poll on the wigwam as to whether cables made a difference and they i's won it, dont be decieved by the people who talk about capaticance and the laws of physics do some real testing and work it out for urself!! If ur not deaf that is!

and

So you can take advice from whoever you choose-it's your money.
Then again some of us have very high calibre systems/loudspeakers performing to the limits of their capability using sensible cables and happy to trust their ears. You could trust the ears of someone who hooks up £700 speakers with £1200 cables. Now any one should realise that a change of loudspeaker would have produced a much more significant change in the sound than the cables so this practice/advice defies common sense- if you're not deaf that is;-)

I really don't think it's about listening ability. Even if it was pure placebo, the alterations in the sound being heard would still be entirely real. Equally, if there are changes to the sound brought about by different cables it could be a 'nocebo' affect would make those who had a prior belief that cables made no difference would not discern any difference.

I still think that laws of physics shouldn't be too readily dismissed!

 

[cooky1257]

Try moving your speakers they could be exiting a room mode and mushing up the bass. I'm done.
Good luck in your quest