Technics SL1200/1210 debate

SS, He's not my "guru", just someone who agrees with my opinion and has the necessary experience and knowledge to form a valid one of his own, unlike certain people here ;)

There seems to be a fashion at the moment for people feeling that they can criticise something they haven't heard, whether it's turntables or how equipment sounds at shows they've not been to.

What next I wonder, James? Anyway, I'll leave you to it and let David and Murray add something more constructive to the thread, unlike you and your very own "sock puppet", SS.
 
...can't say I've had that particular pleasure... but if he's also a DD disciple then fair enough!

Trouble is that 'the slipping belt' theory should surely only have a miniscule effect (considering you can get very good wow and flutter from BDs - i.e. Avid, EAT), yet it's so clearly audible to my and many others ears.

The opening arpeggiated guitars on Kate Bush's 'Babooshka' are a great test; hear it on an Lingo LP12 and on an SL1200 and tell me which is right!
 
David Price said:
I subscribe to the school of thought that says DDs respond much better to dynamic wow (when the stylus excerpts a sudden 'drag' on the record due to higher groove modulations). Basically, as soon as there's a tug on the platter by the stylus tracking heavy groove modulation, the DD servo pumps some more juice into the motor, so the platter doesn't slow down. What happens on a BD is of course as soon as they're a tug, the weakest link in the drive system 'gives' a bit - which is to say the belt stretches. This results in a slight speed instability.
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It's a lovely theory, but if you try to estimate the stylus drag, you will see that it doesn't stand up to scrutiny, like so many other things in hi-fi folklore.

A certain person used to insist that his CD player sounded better if he controlled it manually from its front panel, rather than using the remote. The hi-fi world is full of loonies.
 
So come on David, tell us all about these '5k Brit belt drives' that are less well engineered than the DJ tt?
 
David Price said:
Trouble is that 'the slipping belt' theory should surely only have a miniscule effect (considering you can get very good wow and flutter from BDs - i.e. Avid, EAT), yet it's so clearly audible to my and many others ears.
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You've convinced yourself that the theory is valid. And no doubt you can feel your car slow slightly when you hit a mosquito on the motorway. ;-)
 
okay - if you admit it's not a "DJ tt", and that it has real merit. Or if you admit you don't know whether it has merit or not as you don't know what you're actually talking about... :-)
 
Steven Toy said:
SS, He's not my "guru", just someone who agrees with my opinion and has the necessary experience and knowledge to form a valid one of his own, unlike certain people here ;)
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You have said you've made no direct comparison with the LP 12. You've exhibited your pride & joy in public, then turned up the volume so loud that the system exhibited harsh distortion.

So you are a hi-fi expert!
 
Bold statement, David. Another one that you can't back up, perhaps?

I'll just put your inaccurate bull down to 'journo jumping on a bandwagon' shall I?

Disappointing.
 
Well Devil, the funny thing is I haven't convinced myself yet; I'm still not sure. It's just that I can't think of any better explanation so I think it's the most plausible.

But just because you can't explain a phenomenon doesn't mean it doesn't exist. If you've got a better idea...

Actually, the drag that those loud grooves produce is probably akin to precisely that - a mosquito on a motorway. Well put.
 
David Price said:
okay - if you admit it's not a "DJ tt", and that it has real merit. Or if you admit you don't know whether it has merit or not as you don't know what you're actually talking about... :-)
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I've heard the stock Technics many times. It's not rare, and it's nothing special.

If these minor mods really, honestly transform it into a "slayer", then why on earth have Technics themselves never done it?
 
It's a shame, Setting Son, that you're descending to ad hominem territory. It's a case that if you can't argue your point, insult your adversary, is it? Is that what goes on here? Is that why it's called 'zero gain', because no one's ever any the wiser?

I simply chipped in 'cos it's a good strand, and I think there's something for people to learn here. That's all. You don't have to learn it from me if you don't want to. It makes no odds to me whether you ever agree. But if you're really interested in the SL1200 then why don't you buy a deck and play with it. That's how most of the SL1200 brigade got into them - they tried it for themselves.

I have to say, considering us vinyl lovers are such an endangered species (about 0.0000001% of the world's population, or some such tiny number), then we're not a very friendly bunch are we? Oh well, I suppose it could be worse - it could 16bit vs. Bitstream CD!
 
If you actually do the maths, you will find there's no way you could ever possibly hear the effect of "stylus drag", even with an LP12. Assume 2g downforce...

It's a psychological effect.
 
Hi Devil - the main mod on the SL1200 is removing the arm (or at least swapping the armtube for a non-resonant item and sorting the counterweight and headshell). The SL120 was of course the 'armless' version, but Technics stopped selling that in about 1979 due to lack of demand. CD was on the way, and the horizon, and I just think they couldn't be bothered anymore.

You're right though; it would be most interesting to see a sub £1000 armless SL1200 with a better plinth, feet and mat. It would sell like hot cakes, I expect. Interestingly, Marantz have a new Japan-only DD out; if this takes off maybe Technics will follow. Denon also do a Japan-only DD.
 
If it's psychological, then it must be a kind of 'group delirium', cos it's easily demonstrable. I've done the 'blind dem' many times, to friends, visitors and family. Even my Mrs can hear the difference. So I think it must be measurable in the lab. Certainly, the wow and flutter figures that the best DDs turn in are far superior to the best BDs, but still the best BDs turn in very low W&F, and you'd think it would be way beyond audibility.

I'd just like a someone to come up with a better hypothesis to mine; I'm still not totally sure. Denying the phenomenon in the first place isn't a useful way in to explaining it, though!
 
You have said you've made no direct comparison with the LP 12.
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James, you haven't directly compared a stock Technics to a modified one, yet you consider that you're entitled to an opinion on the latter. What's the difference? Please answer this. At least I've actually listened to both decks concerned - many times!

Incidentally, you say that you've heard a stock Technics "many times". Where exactly and in what system?

David, just ignore SS. He very rarely contributes anything constructive to discussions and just likes to be an argumentative pain in the arse :rolleyes:

Denying the phenomenon in the first place isn't a useful way in to explaining it, though!
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James will never ever trust his ears over maths or science - he's one of the 'scope squad'. You know the type ;)
 
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David Price: It's a shame, Setting Son, that you're descending to ad hominem territory.

Evidence of this, please?

David Price: It's a case that if you can't argue your point, insult your adversary, is it?

I wasn't arguing any point whatsoever. I asked you to provide evidence to back up your statement which you have avoided and are now attacking me instead.

David Price: I simply chipped in 'cos it's a good strand, and I think there's something for people to learn here.

With unsubstantiated statements?

David Price: You don't have to learn it from me if you don't want to.

Do you have anything to teach? If so, what?

David Price: But if you're really interested in the SL1200 then why don't you buy a deck and play with it.

I have no interest in it whatsoever. I pulled you up on your still unsubstantiated statement.

David Price: I have to say, considering us vinyl lovers are such an endangered species (about 0.0000001% of the world's population, or some such tiny number), then we're not a very friendly bunch are we? Oh well, I suppose it could be worse - it could 16bit vs. Bitstream CD!

Insulting me with spin again.

As I said, disappointing.
 

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