Technics SL1200/1210 debate

murray johnson said:
I read the audio press a fair bit in the early to mid 80's. I can't recall the 1210 even being mentioned. There were occasionally reviews of the SP10 ie in the Gramophone (1976) and in one of the small HiFi Choice books. However, direct comparisons with the favoured decks of that time seemed to be avoided. There weren't often reviews of the other more ambitious direct drives such as the Trio either. I did see a test of the JBE series 3 which came out ahead of an LP12 in one test but that 'error' was soon put right. On another occasion, HiFi Choice made the mistake of including a Goldmund Studio in a TT group test which promptly embarassed the belt drive competition it was up against.

I think the press at that time were rather careful about what they were seen to like & dislike. That's entirely understandable. They did have to keep the stronger, more vociferous & influential retailers onside.
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So they were telling porkies then.
That's all I'm trying to establish.

DDs as a breed were dismissed as being poor not just the Technics range - I say 'range' as many of the consumer models were pretty similar.

Bit like flared trousers these things, they come and they go ;)

BTW, I'm not anti DD. I used a nice big Micro for a while and really like the SP10.
 
David Price said:
Hi Devil - the main mod on the SL1200 is removing the arm (or at least swapping the armtube for a non-resonant item and sorting the counterweight and headshell). The SL120 was of course the 'armless' version, but Technics stopped selling that in about 1979 due to lack of demand. CD was on the way, and the horizon, and I just think they couldn't be bothered anymore.

You're right though; it would be most interesting to see a sub £1000 armless SL1200 with a better plinth, feet and mat. It would sell like hot cakes, I expect. Interestingly, Marantz have a new Japan-only DD out; if this takes off maybe Technics will follow. Denon also do a Japan-only DD.
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Hi,

I had a Techincs SL120 with a Audio Technica arm in the very early 90s. I remember comparing it to my Rock reference at the time. To my ears it didn't beat it in any area.

I have used the Technics Sl1200/1210 as a djing tool for 20 year in my altered ego as a club dj. The deck is good for the job but not perfect. They are well built but the plinths could be better. The isolation need to be worked on. In clubs, the deck are usually placed on extra isolation slabs to reduce it from feeding back.

SCIDB
 
David Price: It's a shame, Setting Son, that you're descending to ad hominem territory.

Evidence of this, please?
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Here:

I'll just put your inaccurate bull down to 'journo jumping on a bandwagon' shall I?
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Do you consider that a polite way to speak to him, or anyone for that matter? Would you speak to him like that face to face?
 
Steven Toy said:
James, you haven't directly compared a stock Technics to a modified one, yet you consider that you're entitled to an opinion on the latter. What's the difference? Please answer this. At least I've actually listened to both decks concerned - many times!
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What's the difference? Good question... About £300, as far as I can tell.

You've never compared the Technics with the Linn, but you say the Technics is better. How does that one work? And how can you set yourself up as an expert, anyway? Why should we trust your judgement?
 
Rob, I heard RD's Pioneer (same as gromits??) recently and it was really very good. There's good and bad to each approach, i suppose. Like you, I just don't like wild statements, especially from people who really should know better.

Oh, and I'd like to see stylus drag slow down an SME.
 
Hi Steven - yes, I agree it does help to have heard something before you can give a strong opinion on its sound quality! Would you give your brother's girlfriend marks out of ten if you'd never seen a picture of her?

Actually, it would be good to get one of the 'the scope squad' to get the oscilloscopes pointed at this phenomenon. It must be measurable; not rocket science as they say. Still I think people's allegiance to Belt Drive is very strong in this country. I shouldn't be surprised at this, as I think the hi-fi press is to blame.

Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike belt drive, I just don't think it's better - it is different. And it's different strokes for different folks. But it seems if you dare to say DD is better (in your opinion) then it you appear to be up for insult or ridicule. Oh well, hey ho!

Actually, I own both DD and BD. I still adore my Michell Orbe and GyroDec (I have both), but am increasingly moving towards my Sony TT-S8000 and Marantz TT1000 for regular use, with the Technics SL1200 being my project deck. Funnily enough, the one drive system I can't get on with is Idler, which is super tight but a bit harsh in the upper regions, in my opinion.

It's all grist to the mill; who'd have thought in 2009 people would be having these conversations. We should all be using 384/32 PCM from memory sticks by now; the fact that it's still vinyl and CD is bizarre considering how the rest of the world has progressed. Discuss...

Doh!

good night.
 
Steven Toy said:
Here:



Do you consider that a polite way to speak to him, or anyone for that matter?
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Sorry Steven, I didn't realise you are David's keeper.

I don't think that is being insulting or attacking in any way, especially considering he has continually avoided my question.

Would you speak to him like that face to face?

Yes, I would.
 
Surely, unless the discs were clamped any stylus drag would act on the '180g of vinyl before it has any affect on a 5kg platter with all its rotational inertia?
 
What's the difference? Good question... About £300, as far as I can tell.
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Stop being facetious, James. I'll ask you again: what's the difference between me judging the Technics despite not having directly compared it to an LP12 and you judging the modified Technics despite not having heard it ever?

Also, I'm still waiting to hear where you've heard the stock technics "many times" and in what systems, so let's see the evidence, tout-suite.
 
Setting Son said:
Rob, I heard RD's Pioneer (same as gromits??) recently and it was really very good. There's good and bad to each approach, i suppose. Like you, I just don't like wild statements, especially from people who really should know better.

Oh, and I'd like to see stylus drag slow down an SME.
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I heard one at Andrews recent bake-off and yes it was pretty good.
Still thought his LP12 spanked it (so it should at the price) but it was far better than I expected.
But that expectation is of course partly the fault of our audio press, who for many years told us that these things were rubbish. Now suddenly they are giant killers.
The truth as usual is probably somewhere in between.
 
Agreed. The Technics might be a very good tt. I really couldn't care less. RD's DD was certainly excellent. I'd just really like to know which 5k British tt's are less well engineered. I'm sure some of the manufacturers would like to know if they are included in this accusation too.
 
Steven Toy said:
Stop being facetious, James. I'll ask you again: what's the difference between me judging the Technics despite not having directly compared it to an LP12 and you judging the modified Technics despite not having heard it ever?

Also, I'm still waiting to hear where you've heard the stock technics "many times" and in what systems, so let's see the evidence, toute-suite.
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What constitutes "evidence"? I can type any old thing in and you'd never know whether it was true or not. But it's not a rare deck. Fopp in Central Glasgow used to have four of them, for instance. They are often seen in nightclubs, too. I'm actually quite fond of the Technics, but I'd rather have an LP12 or Orbe for serious listening.
 
But that expectation is of course partly the fault of our audio press, who for many years told us that these things were rubbish. Now suddenly they are giant killers.
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Hi Rob,

It depends how you define the term "giant killer". I've heard someone's modded 1210 compete with, and in some ways outperform, a very good SP10 in a Slate plinth at an AoS bake-off.

How highly do you rate the SP10? It's certainly considered by some as 'legendary'. Therefore, if a modified 1210 can compete sonically with an SP10, a considerably more expensive beast in its day, then isn't it by definition a 'giant-killer'?
 
What constitutes "evidence"?
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Well unless you're a liar, whatever relevant experience you've got. I trust whatever it is you give me.

Fopp in Central Glasgow used to have four of them, for instance. They are often seen in nightclubs, too.
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That's not even funny, James. I just knew it wouldn't have been in a proper hi-fi system. How on earth can you judge a turntable properly in that type of environment?

I'm actually quite fond of the Technics, but I'd rather have an LP12 or Orbe for serious listening.
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Based on what exactly? What you've heard in Fopp or at a nightclub? I really don't know why I'm bothering arguing with you if this is the best you can come up with.

The truth is you think you'd prefer an LP12 or an Orbe because you don't know any better. Just be man enough to admit it.
 
Steven Toy said:
Hi Rob,

It depends how you define the term "giant killer". I've heard someone's modded 1210 compete with, and in some ways outperform, a very good SP10 in a Slate plinth at an AoS bake-off.

How highly do you rate the SP10? It's certainly considered by some as 'legendary'. Therefore, if a modified 1210 can compete sonically with an SP10, a considerably more expensive beast in its day, then isn't it by definition a 'giant-killer'?
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I'll reserve judgement on it until I hear one.

The thing with modifying is that at some point it stops being a Technics, and often becomes the owners's 'one off' creation.
I certainly think that the LP12 has moved far enough away from it's roots for me to no longer regard it as an LP12 - sounds excellent but actually more like the SP10 with every passing year!

I might be a little different to many TT users in that I judge the performance of my TT by how close it gets to the very best CD, or digital if you like.
 
I'll reserve judgement on it until I hear one.
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That sounds fair enough. Could you please teach James this form of assessment methodology? ;)

I might be a little different to many TT users in that I judge the performance of my TT by how close it gets to the very best CD, or digital if you like.
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In that case you definitely must get to hear a decent modified 1210 sometime because that's precisely what it does best.
 
Steven Toy said:
The truth is you think you'd prefer an LP12 or an Orbe because you don't know any better.
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In the same way that you think you prefer the 1210 to an LP12 without ever actually comparing them, or owning either?

You never answered the Q about vibration pathways..

I think you should think carefully before settling on the Technics. How many records do you own?
 
some interesting points.

people are getting a little agressive in their arguements I feel..... chill out !!

It's all hifi and it's all music.; something we all care passionately about.


Having read the thread all the way through, for DD mucking about . I'd still be having fun with Lenco's, Garrards and SP10's.. personally. Vintage cool (and what's better than that) build quality that's lasted for decades- and in the case of the Lenco - peanuts to buy or replace.

Having said the above, I feel no desire to sell my belt drive... as David put it different decks provide their own sonic compromises and none are perfect.
 

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