Technics SL1200/1210 debate

David Price said:
Funnily enough, the one drive system I can't get on with is Idler, which is super tight but a bit harsh in the upper regions, in my opinion.
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That's an astute observation & one I'd agree with based on my own experiences in listening to 301's & 401's. Whether its a drive smoothness issue or a platter 'joining in' effect I don't know.

I'm not convinced by their bass 'trick' either which can sound entertaining on funk/techno/reggae etc but decidedly odd & contrived with classical music.



Toothed belts would introduce far too much noise (as would chain drive!)
 
Steven, why not post some snippets recorded using your Technics - the same for you James?
 
I don't have a Technics but I intend to get one when funds allow. Marco's deck is the most musical front end I have heard, especially on the QS Ref stand used at Scalford. There was one Mark Knopler track played with the volume at a reasonable level (M was on a wander around the show iirc) and I captured it on my Nokia N95 8 GB phone as a video. The KAB Technics captured the tunefulness and rhythm of his guitar playing beautifully, and yes, the bass is more articulate than on any Fruitbox I have heard where it tends to sound rather bloated. The Linn also seems to suffer slight timing glitches too to my ears and via a number of different examples, making for a rather disconcerting listen when attempting to let the whole performance wash over as a whole.

This just does not happen with the Technics. The Timestep made such a marked difference to the noisefloor over the KAB that even in the 5 months between Scalford and hearing it again chez M, the sheer clarity of the full envelope of notes against a very stark, black background was unmistakable.

If I knew how I would upload the Scalford video.
 
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Rather than squabbling who has the 'biggest' why not just put the same arms and carts on the two tables and compare them in the same system, that must be possible?
Keith.
 
FWIW I think the effects of stylus drag are audible on suspended turntables, what happens is that the subchassis twists around the platter and then wobbles a bit. It's not exactly a major effect. What doesn't happen is the platter slowing down. There is a resonance between the platter and belt but I think this is a pretty much continuous effect rather than transient.

There were some Keith Jarrett needledrops linked to on PFM that, IMO, demonstrated the effect.

Paul
 
I once heard an SME 20 into Berning amplification and TAD speakers.

It was the 2nd best system I've heard.

Later, the owner changed the SME 20 for an SP10. It was now, the 2nd best system I've ever heard.

I have no doubt in my own mind, if the SP10 was sold and replaced at that time with an Avid Acutus, the system would then be..... the 2nd best system I've heard.



Ivor T was 'bang on' with his 'source first' arguements based on my experience, wasn't he :D
 
Chris Hi, spot on, it is the great hi-fi lie isn't, differences are pretty subtle between decent kit imho.
Keith.
 
wadia-miester said:
I wonder is setting son a salisbury employee?
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Way wide of the mark as usual. I don't own any Naim and regularly give them plenty of stick on the forums.

Steven Toy said:
An unpaid Fanboi more like!
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Fanboi of what exactly, Steven? Where have I have shown any preference for any product whatsoever? Asking someone to back up a foolish claim hardly constitutes fanboi behaviour. Agressively defending a product you down even own however.......
 
Purite Audio said:
Chris Hi, spot on, it is the great hi-fi lie isn't, differences are pretty subtle between decent kit imho.
Keith.
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Hi Keith

Yes, in my experience changes in the room acoustic are of the greatest effect, and then speakers....
 
I don't own any Naim and regularly give them plenty of stick on the forums.
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Yes, giving people "stick" is definitely what you do best. Rarely does much of a constructive nature trip from your keyboard. Btw, what T/T do you use?

So you were at RD's bake-off? Which one were you in the photographs posted on pfm?
 
Room then speakers first, with electronics and ancilliaries playing only a minor role?

Thread crapping objectivism?

Sneering negativity?


No wonder this once vibrant and busy forum has virtually died a death and nobody seeks the knowledge to reach musical nirvana here any more.

A great shame.
 
Paul Ranson said:
FWIW I think the effects of stylus drag are audible on suspended turntables, what happens is that the subchassis twists around the platter and then wobbles a bit. It's not exactly a major effect.
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It all depends on the compliancy of the suspension, the motor position and the geometry of the suspension (amongst other issues). No generic statements can be made with regards to the specific behaviour of all suspended turntables.

Keith, I don't think anyone involved with this particular argument is interested in actualy resolving any issues.
 
Steven -

I'm not sure who that's all aimed at - is it me?

The thread title is 'The difference between mainstream HIFI, budget seperates, midrange and high end? '

...so... quite literally pages and pages discussing one Technics turntable could be described in a negative fashion as being outside the constructs of the thread topic.

Given that the thread has quite entirely been derailed from it's original subject, quite what monster it turns into is hardly ''off topic'' as no topic seems to exist in the thread anymore anyway.

Incidentally, I've never said that hifi ancillaries (if by this we mean components) play a minor role. More that the difference between electronic components is often overstated in terms of the effect it has.

Anyone denying the effect of the room as the largest contributor to how a system sounds should set their hifi up in the bath-tub :) and hear the difference :D

Just dont have a shower :P


Hi Keith

Still enjoying the loudspeakers. I have been looking at a new home, and have found a place (and bought it) with high ceilings, a rectangular footprint in the living room, and a size of approx 19 x 15.

This should really help things sound better when I move towards the end of this year.

I will be soundproofing the room and treating it acoustically before moving in.

This will mean using soundproofing on the floor, acoustic underlay underneath new carpets, my existing bass traps and absorbtion panels, and probably the purchase of a couple of diffusor panels aswell.

I'm very much looking forward to the effect this will have.

You'd have to say I back up my opinions with actions along the same lines :)
 
YNMOAN - yes, I also think there's an issue with suspension on belt drive decks.

Interestingly, Gurt(?) Pederson did a mod for Michells, which locks the springs into an up and down motion only, so they can't go sideways. Never heard this but I am told it tightened up the sound.

Also, the amount of belt splippage/stretch of course depends on the length, compliance and stiffness of the belt, and also its proximity to the inner platter.

I used to think the Michell peripheral drive system was better than using an inner platter, but now I'm not so sure. Roksan and Avid are both very speed-stable as BDs go.

BD speed instability is a combination of a number of factors then, but fundamentally it comes down to the belt's inability to transfer motor torque in a stable and consistent way.

DD has other issues; noise being the big one. That means you've got to get the motor perfect, and the drive circuitry too. It's got to start right, rather than relying on an elastic band to cure the problems by decoupling the noise.
 
Paul Ranson said:
FWIW I think the effects of stylus drag are audible on suspended turntables, what happens is that the subchassis twists around the platter and then wobbles a bit. It's not exactly a major effect. What doesn't happen is the platter slowing down. There is a resonance between the platter and belt but I think this is a pretty much continuous effect rather than transient.
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I think that would depend on the type & compliance of the suspension. The LP12 suspension is very compliant, and it wobbles around like a jelly at the smallest input. Having said that, I never noticed dynamic wow on any Linn. The SME suspension is heavily damped, and doesn't move about.
 

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