What £20k system would you chose against this criteria?

well the safest bet IMHO are systems by small manufacturers or dedicated dealers that pay a special attention to careful matching between the components. mind, you can make an absolutely horribly sounding system for this money!

the best i've heard for this amount recently was the full system by previously mentioned dutch horn specialists BD-design. they have a branch dedicated to the electronics that match their speakers perfectly. so, for 30.000 euros you would get the speakers (oris swing 22.500E), power amp(crazyA, 1600E), TVC preamp (crazyV, 1600E) and DAC (crazy T, 3500E). prices are approx.
i would expect these speakers to perform seriously better than anything mentioned here, with a dynamic headroom rarely seen in domestic speakers (i've heard them playing with 7w into the 114db horns, absolute armaggedon!) yet totally neutral and uncoloured. on top, due to active bass units, all you need is a good flea power amp for the mid/hi drivers. it really doesn't need any stupidly expensive upstream components to rock big time.
 
coops said:
Does BD ever demonstrate tham at Hi Fi shows?
Click to expand...

Hi Coops

Bert has to my knowledge only demoed part of his products once in Germany last year.

But he is establishing a reseller network around the map now.
Until now I think 6 or 7 places including my place and his own.

Bert is not really a showman type of person.

With his new Crazy Line products and the SWING MKII's it is his first real complete finished setup that covers a total set-up.
Further he sells an unusual NOS-DAC called TwinDac+, some AC conditioners, DIY solutions and likely soon Feastrex fullragers in both DIY and finshed speaker designs. Furthermore the until now not known RAAL Proline Ribbons and the Duelund Coherent speaker components.

Beside that I know he is giving birth to some rather unusual finished BD speakers this year.

Furthermore he is sniffing a bit in my camp about my insanity RAAL+Gerner OB speaker system. 112/db/w line array price tagged 100.000 £. I'm not kidding.

If his resellers can cope with that much I don't know.

But most of his program he sells directly from his own company in Nunspeet, NL.

Gerner:)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I know its a bit over your budget but I give a listen to this,

Sonus Faber Amati Anniversario

Wadia 861 or 581

Musical Fidelity KW750 (power amp only)

The wadia has the option to come with a very hight quality pre amp which can go directly into a power amp.
 
not sure what bel canto you have heard that sounded harsh and thin, but my friend has a setup made of the following.

Bel Canto CD2 transport
Bel Canto DAC3
Bel Canto Pre3
Bel Canto Ref1000's
Focal Electra 1037be

All connected with missing link cables, balanced end to end digital and analogue (which makes the best of the bel canto's) And it sounds superb, smooth, clean, detailed and rich, with excellent clarity but a little bit of warmth. It sounds controlled at any volume level and has tremendous punch. It has a retail value not far off the target your looking at.

he does however favour vinyl through use of an SME 20/2A and eastern electronics phono stage which adds about £9k to the cost of the system. That and the Isotek substation and titan powering his main electronics.

Speaker cable in his case is Kimber Monocle


On a smaller scale we had my system set up with the bel canto pre3 and S300 into my focal 1007be, and that also sounded excellent, with not a single hint of brightness to speak of. I can only imagine whoever demonstrated you bel canto, was doing so with innapropriate partnering kit, and likely wasnt using balanced connections.
 
shrink said:
not sure what bel canto you have heard that sounded harsh and thin, but my friend has a setup made of the following.

Bel Canto CD2 transport
Bel Canto DAC3
Bel Canto Pre3
Bel Canto Ref1000's
Focal Electra 1037be

All connected with missing link cables, balanced end to end digital and analogue (which makes the best of the bel canto's) And it sounds superb, smooth, clean, detailed and rich, with excellent clarity but a little bit of warmth. It sounds controlled at any volume level and has tremendous punch. It has a retail value not far off the target your looking at.

he does however favour vinyl through use of an SME 20/2A and eastern electronics phono stage which adds about £9k to the cost of the system. That and the Isotek substation and titan powering his main electronics.

Speaker cable in his case is Kimber Monocle


On a smaller scale we had my system set up with the bel canto pre3 and S300 into my focal 1007be, and that also sounded excellent, with not a single hint of brightness to speak of. I can only imagine whoever demonstrated you bel canto, was doing so with innapropriate partnering kit, and likely wasnt using balanced connections.
Click to expand...

I listened to Bel Canto at SoM and they are a very competent dealer. I chose to listen based on Wadiameisters love of Bel Canto and he is a drummer. I initially listened to the Belcanto with my Sonus Faber Amator II and it sounded horrible. Recordings that I know well were altered beyond belief. Weird compression, EQ and harshness on Stevie Wonder and Michael Jackson vocals that were not present on my Quad, Ayon, Accustic Arts CDPs via Quad and Coda amps. The Belcanto sound was also very forward, similar to Naim presentation. I am very familiar with balanced and unbalanced connections and it would not have delivered such a dramatic result if the wrong cables were used. I have found other systems much more pleasing so will probably not revisit unless you strongly feel that something was amiss. The best CD/Amp combination that I have heard so far was Audio Research SP17 with Quad 11-forty but the Quad, whilst accurate was too laid back.
 
bass007 said:
I know its a bit over your budget but I give a listen to this,

Sonus Faber Amati Anniversario

Wadia 861 or 581

Musical Fidelity KW750 (power amp only)

The wadia has the option to come with a very hight quality pre amp which can go directly into a power amp.
Click to expand...

Thanks, used to have a Wadia transport and Dac and a Nuvista M3 and have Sonus Fabers. hmmm..... could be worth a try but based on the M3 not being good enough for my needs now, I do not know how the KW750 compares to the M3? It would need to be substantially better, more agile, more detail, more accuracy - its a big ask.
 
anubisgrau said:
well the safest bet IMHO are systems by small manufacturers or dedicated dealers that pay a special attention to careful matching between the components. mind, you can make an absolutely horribly sounding system for this money!

the best i've heard for this amount recently was the full system by previously mentioned dutch horn specialists BD-design. they have a branch dedicated to the electronics that match their speakers perfectly. so, for 30.000 euros you would get the speakers (oris swing 22.500E), power amp(crazyA, 1600E), TVC preamp (crazyV, 1600E) and DAC (crazy T, 3500E). prices are approx.
i would expect these speakers to perform seriously better than anything mentioned here, with a dynamic headroom rarely seen in domestic speakers (i've heard them playing with 7w into the 114db horns, absolute armaggedon!) yet totally neutral and uncoloured. on top, due to active bass units, all you need is a good flea power amp for the mid/hi drivers. it really doesn't need any stupidly expensive upstream components to rock big time.
Click to expand...

Sounds like an interesting system for someone but it does not meet some of my criteria - I know that I wrote a lot and maybe you missed some of the detail. I need speakers that look good - design cue Aston DB9 - thinking of something more like the WB ACT, the horn speakers you recommended are too big and ugly. Also I do not believe that BD have UK dealers and support. Thanks anyway.
 
dominicT said:
Sounds like an interesting system for someone but it does not meet some of my criteria - I know that I wrote a lot and maybe you missed some of the detail. I need speakers that look good - design cue Aston DB9 - thinking of something more like the WB ACT, the horn speakers you recommended are too big and ugly. Also I do not believe that BD have UK dealers and support. Thanks anyway.
Click to expand...

Hi DominicT

This company can for sure rip your wallet.

And they are respresented in UK.

http://www.gryphon-audio.dk/default2.asp

Gerner:)
 
I feel the Aston Martin analogy is telling here. You can have a better looking car than a DB9 for a fraction of the cost ( subjective). You can have a better performing car for a fraction of the cost. You can have a better made car for a etc etc. But together you have a product that goes reasonably well, looks really great and costs a bundle.

If that's the sort of audio system you are looking for, consult any Absolute Sounds or Audiofreaks dealership. They will have something to suit your budget and aspirations.

It's a compromise I really can't make these days I'm afraid - but if I had to, I'd probably plump for the ATC Anniversary SCM100 towers in the piano magnolia burr with a nice shiney CD spinner like the Burmester 001.
 
Stereo Mic said:
I feel the Aston Martin analogy is telling here. You can have a better looking car than a DB9 for a fraction of the cost ( subjective). You can have a better performing car for a fraction of the cost. You can have a better made car for a etc etc. But together you have a product that goes reasonably well, looks really great and costs a bundle.

If that's the sort of audio system you are looking for, consult any Absolute Sounds or Audiofreaks dealership. They will have something to suit your budget and aspirations.

It's a compromise I really can't make these days I'm afraid - but if I had to, I'd probably plump for the ATC Anniversary SCM100 towers in the piano magnolia burr with a nice shiney CD spinner like the Burmester 001.
Click to expand...

Hi, I think that you mis-read my post. What I said was design cue - Aston DB9, meaning what it looks like, but i appreciate that this is such a subjective area!!!!! The Aston to me is a great looking car in a way that say, Noble isnt. The Noble is better on the track but I would rather own a DB9 for everyday driving as the Noble is too harsh - a bit like say Naim is to my ears. What the Aston is though is modern and sleek, much like the Wilson Benesch speakers and unlike, in my view, studio monitor speakers like ATC that sound great, I work with them, but I would never want them in my lounge.

Apologies, I had thought that my post was clear. I want acccuracy and detail so please do not confuse what I am after. I do though want a beautiful looking everyday speaker to go with my stunning lounge, not an ugly track day special, even if it is faster, cheaper, and better....er...no its still not better looking!

Out of interest please tell me what better performing (depends on what you mean by that - better fuel economy?), better looking car for the fraction of the cost.

I expect to pay more for performance and beauty, build quality, reliability, long term manufacturer support and strong residuals.
 
Dominic, have you looked at what recent Meridian kit has to offer. I have heard the 6000 series in the past and been most impressed and the later 8000 series looks stunning.

Have you actually seen a pair of ATC Anniversaties? Very traditional shape I'll admit, but stylish with it (so my Daughter says). I own a pair of SCM-150 Anni's you see, with dCS front end.

Cheers,
Keith.
 
Dominic

I am no expert in any respect but especially not at this price point but........

You mentioned Wadiameister.

If you haven't already spoken to him then why don't you get him to put something together at that price point? I'm sure he'd drop it off at your house and could no doubt set it up for you to listen to.

I very briefly (an hour or so) heard his 'small system' and a slightly bigger one with JM LAB Mezzo Utopias, BelCanto Ref Pre / Power and Esoteric X -03.

I can't compare the system with much but it was very impressive, sounded easy to listen to with great dynamics and the BelCanto amps worked very well with the supposedly 'bright' JM Labs.

Incidentally I was picking up my Cambridge A840C which Wadiameister had modded for me. Compared to the Bel Canto CD2 my player was close but not quite there. The Esoteric was much more natural again with less digital 'hash'. The introduction of the 'master clock re generator' made the sound yet more 'fluid' (I'm running out of HiFi-isms). At your price point you can do better than the 840C IMO.
 
covkxw said:
Dominic, have you looked at what recent Meridian kit has to offer. I have heard the 6000 series in the past and been most impressed and the later 8000 series looks stunning.

Have you actually seen a pair of ATC Anniversaties? Very traditional shape I'll admit, but stylish with it (so my Daughter says). I own a pair of SCM-150 Anni's you see, with dCS front end.

Cheers,
Keith.
Click to expand...

Hi Keith, sorry, just seen a picture, was thinking of their studio stuff that looks horrid! They look ok, a little bit trad for me, but certainly worth a listen! Am not a fan of Meridian as it seems to suck the life out of the performance - to my ears at least - very flat and no dynamics on reordings that I know are dynamic. Thanks D
 
You already seem to know quite clearly what your after in terms of sound and design, and judging from your, mainly negative, reposts to various suggestions, clearly already seem to have extensive personal experience of much of what is available. At the end of the day only you can decide, especially given the need for the cosmetic/fashion appeal of the speakers - it's your taste and nobody else is going to have the same set of values.

Perhaps the £20k woud be better spent on a penis extension:D - makes the willy waving much more impressive!!

PS. for the sake of the argument if it were my money I'd go for a nice simple single box disc spinner (Wadia or Esoteric), Perreaux amplification (not sure if there is a UK dealer though) and speakers to suit your tastes and that compliment your 'stunning' lounge;)
 
scott_01 said:
Dominic

I am no expert in any respect but especially not at this price point but........

You mentioned Wadiameister.

If you haven't already spoken to him then why don't you get him to put something together at that price point? I'm sure he'd drop it off at your house and could no doubt set it up for you to listen to.

I very briefly (an hour or so) heard his 'small system' and a slightly bigger one with JM LAB Mezzo Utopias, BelCanto Ref Pre / Power and Esoteric X -03.

I can't compare the system with much but it was very impressive, sounded easy to listen to with great dynamics and the BelCanto amps worked very well with the supposedly 'bright' JM Labs.

Incidentally I was picking up my Cambridge A840C which Wadiameister had modded for me. Compared to the Bel Canto CD2 my player was close but not quite there. The Esoteric was much more natural again with less digital 'hash'. The introduction of the 'master clock re generator' made the sound yet more 'fluid' (I'm running out of HiFi-isms). At your price point you can do better than the 840C IMO.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the further thoughts. I did not get on well with Bel Canto at SoM but as there are a few fans here I will give them another try next week. WM is in the wrong part of the country for me but as he has been in touch I will no doubt call for a chat. Actually, it has just occured to me that a Wadia 861 with active ATCs might be worth a listen but at the back of my mind I can see myself maybe getting a T/T next year so might need to hedge my bets - depends on how T/T like the CDP is!
 
You probably already know this but I think you can buy a Wadia A/D converter and run your phono system from pre-amp though the 861 to the actives too. Don't know what it does to the SQ.
 
dominicT said:
Hi, I think that you mis-read my post.
Click to expand...

I don't think I did Dominic.

I want acccuracy and detail so please do not confuse what I am after. I do though want a beautiful looking everyday speaker to go with my stunning lounge,
Click to expand...

If you want accuracy in a room your size, then I am afraid something larger than you seem to want is a must. You can have one or the other IME. You could get the Bang and Olufsen Beolab 5 and hook it up to a decent CD player. That would no doubt blend in.

I expect to pay more for performance and beauty, build quality, reliability, long term manufacturer support and strong residuals.
Click to expand...

I thought you had already seen the residuals of shiny fi? Sorry I misunderstood :)
 

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