Why do you visit audio forums?

[RobHolt]

Every component I'm listening to now was bought on the basis of verbal descriptions made by other people on the Internet.

Their descriptions were very helpful to me. I'm very glad that I was able to read them.

None of the descriptions were based on ABX tests. And it's highly likely that most of the posters wouldn't have bothered writing anything if they had been forced to do an ABX test supported by samples.

The problem is that you could kill probably 50% of all audio internet queries overnight if people did a little testing. You would also save them some money and the endless kit swapping that, while some of us might enjoy for the hell of it, many do not.
For example, i'm amazed at the number of replies given to people with bright speakers (or bright sound from lack of room absorption or hard surfaces close to the speakers) to cure this very definite speaker/room effect by swapping one perfectly good neutral amplifier for another, or change from metal cones to wood, or swap from stranded to solid core interconnect, or elevate their mains distribution units on special 'isolators' etc etc.
Had they just spent only a few hours with a range of amps, isolation tweaks and cables, done a few unsighted comparisons they would quickly realise that none of this get anywhere close to solving the problem.

It all boils down to education and giving people the chance to make proper evaluations.
The choices they make are entirely up to them but at least they are made without prejudice.

 

[Richard Dunn]

Maybe not directly, but almost every post you make on the internet promotes your ideology and belief-set, and does so in remarkably absolutist terms, e.g. a hatred of SUTs, a love of Perspex cases / non-ferrous construction, a hatred of "complex" crossovers, a disregard of flat responses in speakers etc etc etc - it runs through absolutely everything you write along with your utter scorn (e.g. "insults and crap" above) for those who in anyway disagree with you or have differing experience. I'd far prefer to dem any such controversial product blind so I hadn't any bias, pro or con, clouding my judgement - I'd like to hear the product alone without the rhetoric.

Tony.

Crap - show me one post where I have promoted my products, apart from in my dedicated forum at Subjectivist, nowhere. As far as design ideas, find anywhere I have gone out of my way to promote them apart from to reply to dissing posts about the way I do things as at PFM, or normal questioning posts as here, so I defend myself or respond to questions. Find me a thread I have created to even mention these things - there are none they don't exist.

 

[Richard Dunn]

Just because people listen blind that doesn't in any way confuse things.

If two people are having a conversation behind me I can clearly hear vocal differences, tell if one has a cold, is using slightly different intonation etc, and also have enough information to make a judgment call on how they might be feeling. Nothing is masked because they are out of view - in fact you can argue the opposite.

You can (well i can) induce a false reaction from people by showing them what they they think they are going to hear. To deny that this effect exists is like saying that we don't breathe air or that the moon is made from cheese. It has been proven countless times.

Those who argue against it don't want it to be true.

Now put yourself in a strange room with a blindfold on, and told it is test where you have to choose, then see how easy it is. You may be like me and just laugh or understand the process, but most can't especially people new to the process. It is unnatural. Why inflict this when you don't have to, the only reason has to be an agenda or motive, in your case it is to prove that there is no difference because that concept is what you have become emotionally attached to.

 

[Dave Simpson]

I'm actually in agreement with a lot of your last post above Rob. Many of us frequently look for solutions to problems in the wrong places and without checking what should be obvious. Education and experience can sort this however.

Regarding blind tests, I still don't believe they are reliable (or rather can be assured they are conducted in a reliable manner.) I've been part of tests before where an LP-12 sounded just like a cassette deck. I'm sorry but no test is going to convince me that was reality.

 

[RobHolt]

I think what Tony is saying is that people with strong opinions on how the world of audio works cannot help but promote their products - if they are in the trade - because the two are inseparable. It isn't an attack or accusation of wrong-doing, just an observation.

For example, If I manufactured and sold a range of dual concentric driver loudspeakers, and I then brought up the subjects of point sources, phase coherence, the pitfalls of multi driver designs etc with regularity in general discussion, that is naturally going to promote my product because it embodies those ideas.
It isn't wrong and I certainly wouldn't want to stop it unless it goes to silly extremes as typified by AVI behaviour on forums. I don't believe Tony would either.

 

[Richard Dunn]

I'd like to hear the product alone without the rhetoric.

Tony.

Remember you were even offered to be sent one to try, for me to get records I want and for you to maybe see what I am defending, but you went out of your way to avoid it.

 

[RobHolt]

Now put yourself in a strange room with a blindfold on, and told it is test where you have to choose, then see how easy it is. You may be like me and just laugh or understand the process, but most can't especially people new to the process. It is unnatural. Why inflict this when you don't have to, the only reason has to be an agenda or motive, in your case it is to prove that there is no difference because that concept is what you have become emotionally attached to.

Except that they (the listeners) aren't wearing blindfolds and the atmosphere can be far more relaxed than you describe.

They certainly are whenever I've hosted these events.
Food and drink provided, guests choose the music, the listening level, the duration of the tracks, how many times to listen, and I even hand them the remote so that they can do their own switching.
I even let them swap base equipment if necessary as i have a decent array of kit here.

It isn't stressful at all.

If one day all listeners happen to reliably pick out a product from the test group that by all usual standards shouldn't stand out, well I have much egg on the face and look like a tit.
Always a risk with these things!

 

[RobHolt]

I'm actually in agreement with a lot of your last post above Rob. Many of us frequently look for solutions to problems in the wrong places and without checking what should be obvious. Education and experience can sort this however.

Regarding blind tests, I still don't believe they are reliable (or rather can be assured they are conducted in a reliable manner.) I've been part of tests before where an LP-12 sounded just like a cassette deck. I'm sorry but no test is going to convince me that was reality.

Never argued that they are perfect, just far better than the alternative.

I'm sure there are rigged or skewed so called blind tests just as there are the bad and misleading sighted ones. But that is no argument for not doing them (properly).

If anyone requires proof that lack of vision doesn't impair the hearing just look at the many recent TT comparisons done via needledrop. Many argue that these diminish the differences yet most listeners report clear differences with very few saying there is no difference between them. What is more fascinating is that while sound differences are identified people often get the TT identity wrong. Ask yourself why that might be. Could it be that 'accepted wisdom' says a Linn sounds like this, a Technics sound like that, or a Rega like this ?

 

[Richard Dunn]

I think what Tony is saying is that people with strong opinions on how the world of audio works cannot help but promote their products - if they are in the trade - because the two are inseparable. It isn't an attack or accusation of wrong-doing, just an observation.

For example, If I manufactured and sold a range of dual concentric driver loudspeakers, and I then brought up the subjects of point sources, phase coherence, the pitfalls of multi driver designs etc with regularity in general discussion, that is naturally going to promote my product because it embodies those ideas.
It isn't wrong and I certainly wouldn't want to stop it unless it goes to silly extremes as typified by AVI behaviour on forums. I don't believe Tony would either.

That is the likes of ******** behaviour on forums, not mine. Again I say find me a thread I have started where I promote my ideas, it doesn't exist. You will find many threads (apart from the fact most were removed at PFM) where I have responded to insult and dissing of them or here where I have answered questions about them (most of them initiated by you) nothing else.

I am here for one purpose to help and promote an individuals right to make his own decisions, not as in the bullshit flat earth past having it imposed on them, or with the industry cliques at PFM having it imposed on them, or at AoS where the owners opinions are imposed on them. None of these just the right of access to *all* products and all information that is/are available and not what retailers, reviewers, forum owners want to impose on you, and the right for them to *choose* with their own music, in their own home, with their own eyes open, with their own system and make their *own* choice.

Regarding this situation I couldn't care less if that choice involved NVA or not as long as there is a flat playing field for all product, and the individual is allowed to make personal choice.

 

[Richard Dunn]

Except that they (the listeners) aren't wearing blindfolds and the atmosphere can be far more relaxed than you describe.

They certainly are whenever I've hosted these events.
Food and drink provided, guests choose the music, the listening level, the duration of the tracks, how many times to listen, and I even hand them the remote so that they can do their own switching.
I even let them swap base equipment if necessary as i have a decent array of kit here.

It isn't stressful at all.

If one day all listeners happen to reliably pick out a product from the test group that by all usual standards shouldn't stand out, well I have much egg on the face and look like a tit.
Always a risk with these things!

Its your system, your room, your music, your food, your agenda to do it blind. Why, what do you wish to promote, that differences don't exist, because from reading up on your blind bake-offs that is all that seemed to happen, so ergo a complete wast of time but to convince people there is no difference.

I do the same thing, but not blind, and with no agenda for no difference and everyone (apart from you) hears the differences. So where is the bias

 

[Basil]

There are no flaws in our powers of perception, there is just what we have *naturally* been designed to do, confront life with a full set of faculties. Remove one and you restrict the definition of the others. That is why *nature* uses this ability to break perception in its designs of predators. We learn from experience, including losing a sense, but why inflict it by choice unless you have a motive to confuse.

Watch the documentry, and see how wrong you are.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00vhw1d/Horizon_20102011_Is_Seeing_Believing/

 

[Richard Dunn]

Watch the documentry, and see how wrong you are.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00vhw1d/Horizon_20102011_Is_Seeing_Believing/

So why over billions of years did natural selection create us the way we are if it is flawed. That is what natural selection is, so what we have is what is right, you may have an agenda to convince people it is wrong, but I cannot possibly understand what that is. I have my senses, I have my emotions, and I have my reasoning, I cannot possibly think I need anything else for listening to music. And if I think they are lying to me does that mean I should disconnect them obviously not, as they cannot be lying to me otherwise natural selection would have made them differently.

 

[RobHolt]

Its your system, your room, your music, your food, your agenda to do it blind. Why, what do you wish to promote, that differences don't exist, because from reading up on your blind bake-offs that is all that seemed to happen, so ergo a complete wast of time but to convince people there is no difference.

I do the same thing, but not blind, and with no agenda for no difference and everyone (apart from you) hears the differences. So where is the bias

And if you invite listeners to your house for a sighted dem 'Its your system, your room, your music, your food, your agenda to do it' sighted.
Moreover you will describe the benefits they will hear.
Your agenda is to prove a difference, else why produce a range of products at different price points?

I should have thought the bias was bloomin obvious.
You play an amplifier that's small and perhaps costs £300, then you play one that costs twice that and looks a lot beefier, then perhaps introduce a high end version which costs a lot more and looks even more serious. You seriously think that these factors, combined with some prior research and a little discussion don't have influence on the listener?

That is the likes of Flatties behaviour on forums, not mine. Again I say find me a thread I have started where I promote my ideas, it doesn't exist. You will find many threads (apart from the fact most were removed at PFM) where I have responded to insult and dissing of them or here where I have answered questions about them (most of them initiated by you) nothing else.

No, it is the inevitable behaviour of *all* those in the trade with strong opinions who post on forums. It isn't wrong, I'm not saying it should be stopped or that it is a deliberate attempt to flog stuff but it is inevitable.
Here, because we have no fees or strict trade policy we can perhaps be more relaxed than other forums who (quite rightly) have to be more guarded to prevent abuse.

 

[Basil]

Richard.

Just watch the film and see for yourself just how easy it is to fool the senses.

 

[Dave Simpson]

Never argued that they are perfect, just far better than the alternative.

I'm sure there are rigged or skewed so called blind tests just as there are the bad and misleading sighted ones. But that is no argument for not doing them (properly).

If anyone requires proof that lack of vision doesn't impair the hearing just look at the many recent TT comparisons done via needledrop. Many argue that these diminish the differences yet most listeners report clear differences with very few saying there is no difference between them. What is more fascinating is that while sound differences are identified people often get the TT identity wrong. Ask yourself why that might be. Could it be that 'accepted wisdom' says a Linn sounds like this, a Technics sound like that, or a Rega like this ?

Now that you mention those needle drops... I thought several of the Linns sounded like Linns from a tonal standpoint. For me though, that was the unimportant bit making the drops useless. The important bits which separate a so-so performance from an outstanding one weren't there (and the LP-12 has no problem displaying those attributes in real time.)

I still worry if I experience one bad blind test, it's possible I'll run into others. I'm not saying sighted is more reliable for all the reasons we know. However, I do know if I run a sighted test, I can make sure there's not a setup problem first. I'm also able to trust my senses (as an LP-12 dealer, I did announce I had found a $300 Japanese CDP that sounded better than an LP-12 during the height of FE-ism, therefore, my bias can be held in check;-)

 

[Basil]

(as an LP-12 dealer, I did announce I had found a $300 Japanese CDP that sounded better than an LP-12 during the height of FE-ism;-)

How did you avoid being burnt at the stake?

 

[Dave Simpson]

How did you avoid being burnt at the stake?

I couldn't begin to tell you the grief I endured (with a smile on my face;-) as I worked at multiple shops in the area doing turntable setups as well as sales.

 

[RobHolt]

Now that you mention those needle drops... I thought several of the Linns sounded like Linns from a tonal standpoint. For me though, that was the unimportant bit making the drops useless. The important bits which separate a so-so performance from an outstanding one weren't there (and the LP-12 has no problem displaying those attributes in real time.)

I still worry if I experience one bad blind test, it's possible I'll run into others. I'm not saying sighted is more reliable for all the reasons we know. However, I do know if I run a sighted test, I can make sure there's not a setup problem first. I'm also able to trust my senses (as an LP-12 dealer, I did announce I had found a $300 Japanese CDP that sounded better than an LP-12 during the height of FE-ism, therefore, my bias can be held in check;-)

Dave, surely it isn't difficult to ensure the test is 'sound.
Just check it over first or if in a group ask one of them to check that no fiddling is going on. Its the reason why I get the listener(s) to operate the switching remote and we verify SPLs were that is a factor (eg for amps).

It'll never catch on though because the industry and specifically the dealers will never tolerate it. Overnight it would wipe out much of the high end, specialist cable and tweaks market and depress magazine sales still further.
The industry has nothing to gain financially by any of this and quite a lot to lose.

The end user on the other hand has much to gain so it is worth the continuing battle.

 

[Dave Simpson]

Dave, surely it isn't difficult to ensure the test is 'sound.
Just check it over first or if in a group ask one of them to check that no fiddling is going on. Its the reason why I get the listener(s) to operate the switching remote and we verify SPLs were that is a factor (eg for amps).

It'll never catch on though because the industry and specifically the dealers will never tolerate it. Overnight it would wipe out much of the high end, specialist cable and tweaks market and depress magazine sales still further.
The industry has nothing to gain financially by any of this and quite a lot to lose.

The end user on the other hand has much to gain so it is worth the continuing battle.

All well and good if you know your way around the back of a hifi rack but I do see it as a potential problem for a beginner in hifi. I don't know of anything guaranteed other than taking the stuff home with you and trying it there. Of course, if you can't hook-up a hifi correctly you're in no better shape...

 

[RobHolt]

Education again then.
Keeps coming back to that.