Why do you visit audio forums?

jcbrum said:
I don't think so Simon, they were cheaply made and cheaply priced, but they still didn't sell enough to stay in business.

Don't forget also that AVI are a much older company (1989) than Epos were before they went into Creeks holdings.

JC
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There is some very distorted information here, so perhaps it could be useful to bring a little balance.. I worked for a hifi store here in Holland at the time the ES14 was a current product and it was our best-selling speaker at anything up to double the price. I do not remember exactly the quantities that we sold, but it was around 8 or 10 pairs a month. Cheap is certainly not a word that comes into my mind when I think back to the way the speaker was built. The construction and the materials were actually rather special and it was very common for customers to come to the store to buy a Kef or a B&W or a Linn and change their mind when they saw the quality of the ES14.

Epos began in 1983 and the ES14 was only a part of what the company did. Their major activity was consultant design and development work with a particular specialty in the area of precision transducers. I don't think that selling enough ES14s was ever a problem. On the contrary, I think that the volume of sales became such that Robin Marshall felt trapped and unable to pursue his other interests. The company did not go out of business (it was too successful and too broad-based for that). The Epos brand name and all of the tooling for the ES14 were sold at the end of 1988 to TGi, who already owned Tannoy, Goodmans and Mordaunt-Short. It was TGi who made the approach and if my understanding is correct it was because they wanted to add a flagship brand to their portfolio.

I do not understand the purpose of comparing the ES14 with the AVI ADM9. They are two very different products. In addition the AVI speaker is a current product, while the ES14 has not been in production for close to 15 years.
 
Richard Dunn said:
Quiet here now, init :D

Please tell me I am not quite as bad as JC, pleeease :o
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Richard, I never thought self-doubt was one of your failings. You aren't even in the same league as JC. You just shoot the breeze about what you like and the industry chip you have, while he acts like some sort of born again lo-fi shill.

No need to worry.
 
HvD said:
There is some very distorted information here, so perhaps it could be useful to bring a little balance.. I worked for a hifi store here in Holland at the time the ES14 was a current product and it was our best-selling speaker at anything up to double the price. I do not remember exactly the quantities that we sold, but it was around 8 or 10 pairs a month. Cheap is certainly not a word that comes into my mind when I think back to the way the speaker was built. The construction and the materials were actually rather special and it was very common for customers to come to the store to buy a Kef or a B&W or a Linn and change their mind when they saw the quality of the ES14.

Epos began in 1983 and the ES14 was only a part of what the company did. Their major activity was consultant design and development work with a particular specialty in the area of precision transducers. I don't think that selling enough ES14s was ever a problem. On the contrary, I think that the volume of sales became such that Robin Marshall felt trapped and unable to pursue his other interests. The company did not go out of business (it was too successful and too broad-based for that). The Epos brand name and all of the tooling for the ES14 were sold at the end of 1988 to TGi, who already owned Tannoy, Goodmans and Mordaunt-Short. It was TGi who made the approach and if my understanding is correct it was because they wanted to add a flagship brand to their portfolio.

I do not understand the purpose of comparing the ES14 with the AVI ADM9. They are two very different products. In addition the AVI speaker is a current product, while the ES14 has not been in production for close to 15 years.
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Very well said.

The ES14 (and Es11) was and remains a superb speaker.

'Cheaply made' couldn't be further from the truth and anyone holding that view hasn't seen or used a pair, no matter what they might post to the contrary.
 
I'd love top try a pair of '14s - they strike me as speakers that are more than the sum of their parts somehow, which is always a credit to a clear sighted designer & good material selection. Also they follow the fine audiophile 'KISS' maxim, which has always been a winner to my ears.

I bet they're not a million miles away from my favourite Royds to listen too.
 
Alan Brown said:
I'd love top try a pair of '14s - they strike me as speakers that are more than the sum of their parts somehow, which is always a credit to a clear sighted designer & good material selection. Also they follow the fine audiophile 'KISS' maxim, which has always been a winner to my ears.

I bet they're not a million miles away from my favourite Royds to listen too.
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They definitely don't do what Royds do musically, they are polite and boring in comparison.
 
Ah, well I haven't heard them so couldn't say. On paper & reputation alone I'd like to hear them anyhow. Having said that, I'd not ever be persuaded to move these on as I love what they do. :D

I've a lovely big set of Goodmans Magisters in the garage that still haven't had an outing on the main rig, as these little'uns are just too good!
 
Richard Dunn said:
They definitely don't do what Royds do musically, they are polite and boring in comparison.
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I think that ES14s and Royds share a common ground of opening a wide window onto the preceding equipment. They are both capable of revealing any problems with the source or the amplifier. Aside from that, the presentation is very, very different. The ES14s have a refined and even-handed balance, while I think that Royds tend towards a forward presentation of the midband, in a similar way to Linn speakers like the Kan and the original Sara. For my taste they work well on rock material but can be rather strident on some of the jazz and chamber music that I personally favour. I must admit that it is more than 15 years since I listened to ES14s or Royds.

I can remember that we made some nice sales in the early 1980s with a brand called ARC. I remember that they were quite similar in their abilities to the Royd products. I don't remember seeing any mention of them for a very long time.
 
That's interesting, I haven't heard of ARC. I use the RR3, which was one of the last Royds, I think. They certainly don't lean forward in the same manner as the Minstrels, which I still love.

I am using a HiFace with my MAC & have noticed just a little stridency on the HF, but that seems to be down to the HiFace as I didn't have an issue before. Wide open window is right.
 
Alan Brown said:
That's interesting, I haven't heard of ARC. I use the RR3, which was one of the last Royds, I think. They certainly don't lean forward in the same manner as the Minstrels, which I still love.
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You will know more about the character of Royds than I do because my experience is with the early models like the Minstral.
 
Back on topic, but a tangent. Why do people choose different forums to post on and what are advantages and disadvantages of the main protagonists.

My position is very simple, I post on the ones I haven't been booted from. :D
 
RobHolt said:
Very well said.

The ES14 (and Es11) was and remains a superb speaker.

'Cheaply made' couldn't be further from the truth and anyone holding that view hasn't seen or used a pair, no matter what they might post to the contrary.
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I had the ES11's for over 10 years and yes a very good speaker. Others i heard at the time for the price just sounded too shrill and ear bleeding. All down to the minimal crossover. Had a little tiss sound in the tweeter probably through it being metal. Not sure whether they are as good now under Creek though.

Jim.
 
Not heard any recent Epos Jim, but I recall a few years back that some models had more complex crossovers which was a shame IMO. The whole original Epos idea was about excellent drivers and minimal crossover.
 
Richard Dunn said:
Back on topic, but a tangent. Why do people choose different forums to post on and what are advantages and disadvantages of the main protagonists.

My position is very simple, I post on the ones I haven't been booted from. :D
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Well........

I tend to prefer forums that like and encourage objective testing methods so that explains why the bulk of my posting in on ZG. It has moved in that direction recently, partly in order to differentiate itself from many others.
My position on the whole subjectivist/objectivist argument is more complex than some people think but that isn't easy to convey on a forum.

AOS - I do not and will not post on AOS - too off the wall for me and I don't like the owner. Sorry but there it is.

PFM - Posted there for many years and of course acted as mod for around six years. Recently took a year out, bar the odd post in the Classics room, mainly because I felt it was heading too far down the subjectivist road and I found myself so at odds with much posted opinion that my posting was getting aggressive. When that happens it is best to bail out - it is supposed to be fun after all. Recent visits have encouraged me to post again as I think some balance has returned. Despite the odd hissy fit and throwing of toys from the pram I can't envisage ever leaving PFM for good. It remains a good forum and Tony is a good friend. We've certainly had a row or two but again, it is only hi-fi.

Hi-Fi Critic - Hardly ever post but you get the odd good discussion. Plenty of industry heavyweights post there so it can be good to bounce ideas around with them.

Wigwam - Just never got into it. No reason really, just so many forums and so little time.

Hi-Fi Subjectivist - well I ought to run a mile from it but am attracted for some reason. I like some of the posters and just like Margaret Thatcher once said that 'every woman needs a Willie (Whitelaw)' so every subjectivist forum needs an objectivist :p
I also like the bake-off show idea and am of course participating.
The brash 'welcome' message implying that all objectivisits should be strung-up by their balls gives a bad impression though IMO ;)

Read lots of others when searching for specific info but don't post on them.
 
Richard Dunn said:
Never 'eard of it!
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Have a look.

It is the antithesis of Hi-Fi subjectivist in terms of opinion.
In order to post an opinion you need to be able to produce hard evidence in the form of testing or you risk having your posts deleted. I like reading the discussions but the control freakery is way OTT.

Big forum though - much bigger than any uk forum.
 
Forgot about DIY Audio.
Fantastic source of information and generally friendly.
Google an amplifier part number or circuit topology and chances are you end up there.

Very useful when you sit staring at a circuit screaming 'work damn you work!!' - some bod on DIY will have the answer.
 
RobHolt said:
Have a look.

It is the antithesis of Hi-Fi subjectivist in terms of opinion.
In order to post an opinion you need to be able to produce hard evidence in the form of testing or you risk having your posts deleted. I like reading the discussions but the control freakery is way OTT.

Big forum though - much bigger than any uk forum.
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It always struck me that the biggest for some reason is Head-Fi and seemingly the most corrupt. I had three requests for free gear (headphone amp) from their admin / mod and reviewers saying they would review it favourably, bloody sick, forums becoming like the mags :mad: :rolleyes: of course I told them to piss-off and now seem to be persona non grata.
 
Think I've only visited Head-Fi once and never went back.

It is surprising just how many are out there, especially if you you include the user groups such a Harbeth, plus of course the vintage audio groups for Quad, Radford, Spendor and no doubt other small user groups.
 

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