ZG & Trade posters - open discussion

[Fnuckle]

I am a sole trader doing what I want to do, I could go out cleaning windows if I wanted to. You are making unfounded allegations that are libelous, you should go very carefull.

No I am not. I did not imply you were in the tax evasion business. You declare your income like any other legitimate sole trader. Some (or all) of that declared second income comes from the manufacture of hi-fi components. That makes you a manufacturer of hi-fi products and thereby a person in the hi-fi trade. The fact that you are also an enthusiast is entirely unimportant, just as it would be to any declared income. You don't get to pay more or less tax because of your enthusiast status.

Yes, you could spend your spare time cleaning windows instead of building audio equipment, and if this were WindowWasherForum, I would suggest you change to 'trade' status. But it's not, it's a forum about audio, and you build audio components for other people. The fact you do this as an enthusiast... hurrah. It still makes you 'trade'.

 

[Richard Dunn]

No I am not. I did not imply you were in the tax evasion business. You declare your income like any other legitimate sole trader. Some (or all) of that declared second income comes from the manufacture of hi-fi components. That makes you a manufacturer of hi-fi products and thereby a person in the hi-fi trade. The fact that you are also an enthusiast is entirely unimportant, just as it would be to any declared income. You don't get to pay more or less tax because of your enthusiast status.

Yes, you could spend your spare time cleaning windows instead of building audio equipment, and if this were WindowWasherForum, I would suggest you change to 'trade' status. But it's not, it's a forum about audio, and you build audio components for other people. The fact you do this as an enthusiast... hurrah. It still makes you 'trade'.

It makes me trade if I post as trade, no one would have known I am trade if it had been up to me, but note I post under my *real* name I do not post under a made up name here. So there is no deceit, where as you post with deceit, who are you is that your real name, you claim trade so which company do you own or work for, your position is full of deceit and is obviously full of agenda.

 

[Fnuckle]

If a came here as trade, or had promoted myself here or my products I would understand your point, and is you find any *un-responding* mention of my business trade or product then I would agree with you.

As it is the fact remains, I came here as an individual, I remain here as an individual. You will find no promotion of my company or products, none of that is going to change.

It doesn't matter. I too am here as an individual. I make no promotion of my company or the products it produces. No-one even knows what that company is, what I do for that company and how it fits in the great audio machine. Nor will they.

But, individual or not, I cannot in all honesty extract myself from the industry I work within while discussing that industry. My being in the industry gives me access to information that I would only be privy to by being in the industry, even if that information is limited to the purview of my job. That is insider information. If I were to make suggestions about the nature, health and future of the audio industry, to refuse to disclose the fact that I was making those statements from within the industry would be hugely disingenuous.

Which is why it is only right that I disclose my status as Trade. Neither of us have the luxury of being truly independent from the business, no matter how loosely connected and how immaterial the income our associations with the trade.

 

[Fnuckle]

It makes me trade if I post as trade, no one would have known I am trade if it had been up to me, but note I post under my *real* name I do not post under a made up name here. So there is no deceit, where as you post with deceit, who are you is that your real name, you claim trade so which company do you own or work for, your position is full of deceit and is obviously full of agenda.

No, I cannot post under my real name. I have posted under my real name in the past and if I do so again, I will not be using the word 'Trade' for much longer.

 

[Mescalito]

You sir are a liar. There is archive record of your posts to me on PF and on here, no one will find one that is constructive, or is not trying to pick a fight. I have had a couple of years experience of this. I don't know where you find the gall to make a statement like that.

Once again you confuse the job with the person. I am sure *everyone else* understands what I am saying, you are twisting and playing semantics to continue your agenda. Are you by chance a saleman or marketing man?

Richard,

Sticks & stones, mate, sticks & stones. Whether you like it or not, the very act of offering something for sale on a public auction site is marketing. As you are a sole trader, that makes you a marketing man. It also makes you chief designer, production manager, finance director etc.

If you find that an insult and a "ad hominem" attack, I have 2 suggestions.

1. Learn what argumentum ad hominem actually means.

2. Live with the fact that you do actually market your kit. Directly on ebay and indirectly on fora until you get kicked out of them.

Chris

 

[danworth81]

Wouldnt it be easier Richard to state in ur signature that u are trade to stop all the contraversial comments, then at least u can carry on using the the forum as normal cos like it or not the mods know ur status and u will be treated as a trade member and have to obey by that specific AUP.

I understand exactly where ur coming from and when I was on another forum I was selling all my kit and also sold some for a mate and I was told I had to get a trade account to keep others happy, so I paid £50 and then was so restricted in what I could say on the boards I ended up getting banned as I argued 'u know Im not trade I only put that in my sig to keep ui guys happy, as I was selling quite a bit' but it was to no avail!

Now over here on ZG there seems to be a more relaxed atmosphere around this subject and I am actually still selling a mates gear but I do it through ebay as to not get myself in the same situation as before on any other forum!

Due to this relaxed atmosphere why dont u just write manufacturer of NVA but I am here as an enthusiast, or something like that cos it seems like u are spending so much time arguing and defending ur corner and I know I would get seriously bored of it very quickly indeed and having to keep checking posts to see if u need to make another point to defend ur position must get bloody tedious!

I for one feel good that I know there are manufacturers and traders here that maybe in the real world on a day to day basis may not be as accessable, especially for general chat and getting to know them a little better!

Personally I think all this to and fro with u and others is casting a small shadow over ur head and may start giving people the wrong impression of u even if some people do provoke as u say, I dont think its a healthy position to be in and I would hold my head high and state clearly who I am in respect to trade/manufacturer status to get urself out of this spat of antaganism.

P.S At least u use ur entire name here instead of some sort of alias, first name basis is always better IMO

 

[nando]

quote

Wouldnt it be easier Richard to state in ur signature that u are trade to stop all the contraversial comments, then at least u can carry on using the the forum as normal cos like it or not the mods know ur status and u will be treated as a trade member and have to obey by that specific AUP.

I understand exactly where ur coming from and when I was on another forum I was selling all my kit and also sold some for a mate and I was told I had to get a trade account to keep others happy, so I paid £50 and then was so restricted in what I could say on the boards I ended up getting banned as I argued 'u know Im not trade I only put that in my sig to keep ui guys happy, as I was selling quite a bit' but it was to no avail!

Now over here on ZG there seems to be a more relaxed atmosphere around this subject and I am actually still selling a mates gear but I do it through ebay as to not get myself in the same situation as before on any other forum!

Due to this relaxed atmosphere why dont u just write manufacturer of NVA but I am here as an enthusiast, or something like that cos it seems like u are spending so much time arguing and defending ur corner and I know I would get seriously bored of it very quickly indeed and having to keep checking posts to see if u need to make another point to defend ur position must get bloody tedious!

I for one feel good that I know there are manufacturers and traders here that maybe in the real world on a day to day basis may not be as accessable, especially for general chat and getting to know them a little better!

Personally I think all this to and fro with u and others is casting a small shadow over ur head and may start giving people the wrong impression of u even if some people do provoke as u say, I dont think its a healthy position to be in and I would hold my head high and state clearly who I am in respect to trade/manufacturer status to get urself out of this spat of antaganism.

P.S At least u use ur entire name here instead of some sort of alias, first name basis is always better IMO

VERY NICELLY PUT.
nando.

 

[Richard Dunn]

It doesn't matter. I too am here as an individual. I make no promotion of my company or the products it produces. No-one even knows what that company is, what I do for that company and how it fits in the great audio machine. Nor will they.

But, individual or not, I cannot in all honesty extract myself from the industry I work within while discussing that industry. My being in the industry gives me access to information that I would only be privy to by being in the industry, even if that information is limited to the purview of my job. That is insider information. If I were to make suggestions about the nature, health and future of the audio industry, to refuse to disclose the fact that I was making those statements from within the industry would be hugely disingenuous.

Which is why it is only right that I disclose my status as Trade. Neither of us have the luxury of being truly independent from the business, no matter how loosely connected and how immaterial the income our associations with the trade.

Then it is you who is commiting the deception on this forum not me. How can anyone know why you post or what agenda you have unless you tell us the company you are involved with. That is what should be compulsory at this forum, if someone declares as trade they should be obliged to describe that association. My position is the opposite, I wont declare as trade (though for anyone with a pair of eyes they will see it in my signature) yet everyone knows who I am and what I do.

Look to your own behaviour, sir!

 

[RobHolt]

I heven't got time to read this stuff at the moment but it needs to be resolved.
It will be this evening.

 

[Fnuckle]

Then it is you who is commiting the deception on this forum not me. How can anyone know why you post or what agenda you have unless you tell us the company you are involved with. That is what should be compulsory at this forum, if someone declares as trade they should be obliged to describe that association. My position is the opposite, I wont declare as trade (though for anyone with a pair of eyes they will see it in my signature) yet everyone knows who I am and what I do.

Look to your own behaviour, sir!

I agree, but as I have said, if my private information is disclosed, I will no longer have 'trade' status. I disagree with this, and disagree with many aspects of the way the industry is running itself into the ground and as such have to rely on anonymity. So, either I walk away from this site, or the 'deception' (such as it is) stands, and stands in the open.

And, for the record, I am not accusing you of deception, Richard, so there's no need to go all 18th Century duelist about this. No gloves will be dragged across cheeks, no swords or pistols drawn.

 

[Mescalito]

You sir are a liar. There is archive record of your posts to me on PF and on here, no one will find one that is constructive, or is not trying to pick a fight. I have had a couple of years experience of this. I don't know where you find the gall to make a statement like that.

Once again you confuse the job with the person. I am sure *everyone else* understands what I am saying, you are twisting and playing semantics to continue your agenda. Are you by chance a saleman or marketing man?

No, Richard,
Like you I have a deep distrust of salesmen/marketing people. I am a mathemetician by training and an engineer by profession. (A real one, with qualifications & everything!)

If you were to come out & state that you were trade, it would remove the nagging doubt that you are on these fora mainly for self interest. People would then be able to assess your contributions with all the necessary facts at their disposal.
Like it or not, the fact that you design & make amplifiers based upon some rather strange (not necessarily invalid, don't spit out the dummy) philosophies will colour your comments & advice.

When assessing your comments and advice, it is only fair that people are awre of your trade background.

If you find this post incendiary, I am sorry. It was not intended to be.

Chris

 

[Fnuckle]

I heven't got time to read this stuff at the moment but it needs to be resolved.
It will be this evening.

Despite my getting hot under the collar about trade status, I think pragmatism is the best approach. Trade status should be an optional - but recommended - disclosure unless the person posting uses the site as a vehicle for their own company's products. AFAIK, no-one does that, and I would suggest that if someone did use the site in such a way, they should not be 'upgraded' to trade status, but upgraded to 'ex-member' status.

If you start getting draconian about trade status, things will just grind to a halt again.

 

[danworth81]

I may have a solution....

What if there is another section at the bottom of the forum headings titled 'Our Trade Members' which only the mods control and everyone who is trade is listed in their by the mods and no-one else can tamper with it.

??

 

[RobHolt]

Ok to clear things up on this:

Anyone that the admin tream reasonably consider to be trade must have the word 'Trade' inserted either beneath their username or clearly displayed in their signature. They do not need to reveal a company name - it is up to the members to make such an enquiry on an individual basis should they feel the need.
If a trade member does not wish to disclose the nature of the trade or industry connection or company name when asked, that's fine - the consent or refusal is there to be seen and members can make their own judgement on the matter.

To clarify, manufacturers, distributers, dealers and direct sellers are considered as trade members and this should be displayed as required.

This is very much one size fits all and we are not going to apply different rules to different people.

If anyone genuinely believes that their industry connections make them exempt from these rules they should contact a moderator and ask for assistance.

I really do not understand the bloody mindedness from some on this issue.
The new rules are less restrictive than those on just about any other forum.

Subject closed.

 

[YNMOAN]

P.S At least u use ur entire name here instead of some sort of alias, first name basis is always better IMO

I honestly don't see what the appeal is of knowing someone's name; I don't really care what people are called. However, if it bothers anyone - they can call me Dave .

 

[flatpopely]

You hold a set of views about the hi-fi industry and work to a specific business model inside the confines of the hi-fi industry. As you are a sole trader within this industry, the two are intrinsically linked.

How one shaped the other is entirely irrelevant to your trade status.

There are those, me for one, who believe that the Hi-Fi Industry still exists as a classic business model (albeit smaller than the 80s). Perhaps those who won't sell via dealers (because dealers won't stock the kit) are banging on about a new model because it#s the only option?

 

[YNMOAN]

I don't know - obviously people tend to believe in the model that serves them. Without doubt the traditional retail market has shrunk and the direct sales market has expanded; but then it has in every area of specialist retail. Personaly, I don't feel evangelical about either approach.

Of course, the real problem with the direct selling of hi-fi is that specialist equipment (as opposed to mass-market mini systems and the like) is all about the sound quality and that cannot be judged from a short written description, or an advertisement. Now all good 'on-line' retailers offer the option to return equipment if the customer is not satisfied and this may well suit some (such a model may even be preferable to some). However, it is not to everybody's taste as some would prefer to compare a number of options directly against each other.

Whatever the situation, discussion of retail models on forums such as this is very much a navel gazing operation as it will have literally zero influence on the actual situation. In the end, the market will decide and what will be will be.

 

[Richard Dunn]

Richard,

Sticks & stones, mate, sticks & stones. Whether you like it or not, the very act of offering something for sale on a public auction site is marketing. As you are a sole trader, that makes you a marketing man. It also makes you chief designer, production manager, finance director etc.

If you find that an insult and a "ad hominem" attack, I have 2 suggestions.

1. Learn what argumentum ad hominem actually means.

2. Live with the fact that you do actually market your kit. Directly on ebay and indirectly on fora until you get kicked out of them.

Chris

Back to normal, more personal attacks and ad hominem, you have been doing it continuously for over two years, don't you ever get bored of it.

For those that don't realise, this all boils down to the fact that I am a subjectivist and design as a subjectivist, he doesn't understand it, doesn't like it, and doesn't like it being talked about, so he takes every oportunity to insult and start fights.

Now for some reason on PF and here this is allowed even though the facts and what is being designed is never discussed, and as far as I know he has never heard an nva product. The man is a bigot who cannot accept that someone is capable of designing in a way different to his understanding from his degrees and learning. Well the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and if he was right then neither NVA or Naim or Exposure would have existed as companies and probably all we would have been stuck with is Quad

 

[Richard Dunn]

There are those, me for one, who believe that the Hi-Fi Industry still exists as a classic business model (albeit smaller than the 80s). Perhaps those who won't sell via dealers (because dealers won't stock the kit) are banging on about a new model because it#s the only option?

Crap! I have had dealers and distributors from Europe knocking on my door for the last 3 years, they were told where to go. Why should I follow your path and triple the price of the product, it makes no sense as I am selling as much as I can reasonably make. Last year I shut down for December as I didn't want my turnover to go too high - I went on holiday.

 

[Purite Audio]

How can your business model allow for dealers or distributors?
Keith.