Identity cards....

[rob]

i think people should be given the choice to have an id card or not.
the face that we arnt given a choice means that we are being conned out of the money we have to pay for these cards and if we dont pay are we commiting a criminal offence?
i can get an id from the portland group for a lot less than these id cards.
the goverment has just spent billions on a war that we couldent afford in the first place , they have to make us pay for it one way or another.

 

[michaelab]

rob - I can sympathize with you about having to pay £80 for one if they become mandatory. They ought to be free.

Michael.

 

[avanzato]

I wonder how long will it take for a criminal/terrorist to make a convincing fake ID card? The more secure and foolproof the Gov tries to make them the less they will be checked by the shopkeeper, policeman etc. when presented, as they will be considered unforgable. Even better to have someone on the inside who can alter the data or give you someone elses identity.

Banning certain guns hasn't stopped gun crime and an ID card won't help stop terrorism. Crimes are stopped by good law enforcement and intelligence services doing their job.

Most worrying for me is that the scheme is being introduced by the same man who is proposing trial without jury and criminal conviction on suspicion.

I have absolutely no faith on past evidence that the Government could get a computer system for a DNA database, or any other for that matter, working in a secure accurate way. How many mistaken convictions would be acceptable?

 

[rob]

when you are arrested and charged the police take a dna sample wether you like it or not.
thats not such a bad thing if it prevents crime , however i am a firm believer that education is a better crime prevention than prison etc.
anyways the card thing , what kind of id will we need to get this id?
who will have access to this information and why?
and exactly what information will be held and for what reason?

until we know the answers to these questions then this whole thing just sounds like a scheme to make money and unless the goverment comes up with a viable/good enough reason the enforce such a thing then people will assume the worst and jump to conclusions.

 

[Sid and Coke]

I seem to have spent my entire working life with having to have positive ID on me at all times, I have absolutely no problem with a national ID card, I have nothing to hide.

As a member of HM Forces ID cards were mandatory, you had to have one on you at all times.

Working in the Middle East (Saudi Arabia) on entry to the country my British Passport was taken off me and held by my Company ( British Aerospace) i was then issued with a Saudi ID book ( Iquama), if stopped by a policman was subject to a SR1,000( £600) fine if you didn't have it on you. I kept mine on me at all times and had no problems with that.

I currently work at a UK Airport for and International Airline. Prior to getting my current company Airside security pass I had to prove that I had no criminal convictions and also supply work history for the past 5 years via Disclosure Scotland. I had nothing to hide and so nothing to fear.

Having an ID card will not stop determined terrorists, they work in an un-tracable and paperless world. What a National ID card will help to combat is stuff like Bogus Assylum, benefit fraud, abuse of the UK Social security and Health service in this respect I am 100% all for it.

If you have paid into the UK welfare system as I and my family have all our working life then you should be entiled to take out of it. If you haven't paid in, and are not entitled to even be in the country then you should pay for the services provided or F**k off to freeload somewhere else if you can't.

I find that being able to priovide positive ID has been much more of a Help than a hinderence in my normal daily life and so would have no problem with Having a National ID card, just as long as it worked for everything, eg Health, social security, Driving licence, Passport and it was valid for at least 5 years at a time.

PS I also think that Voting at national referendums and general elections should be made mandatory for all resident British Citizens. You could use your New ID card to register your vote at a post office , etc ( if any are still open by then ). In this way less people will whinge about the goverment as it will be a true democratic vote from the vast majority of the people, well apart for the democratic right not to vote being removed .

 

[Mark67]

I have nowt against ID cards, but they should be free if we have to have one.

Just as long it says a 'Citizen of The United Kingdom' & not a Citizen of The European Union as it does on the 'New' Passports.

As for Crime, maybe we should be stop being so Soft on Criminals.

Perhaps we could try -

If you are caught Shoplifting you should be made to Clean all the windows of the store, clean the pavement outside the store and carry a board telling everyone you are a Shoplifter, all for a whole month.

Vandalism - you should have to pay all the money to fix the vandalism. If under 16 then the parents should pay & if they refuse off to Prison for a couple of months.

For those in Prison - No TV, No recreation @ all. Basically you should have nothing of any value.

Make Prison a place to dread, not a place to laugh @ the Establishment.

Maybe that way Crime may fall?

Harsh , never.

 

[GTM]

On the identity card front - no complaints from me, in fact I'd take it further and make everyone give a DNA sample - surely that would help to solve crimes.

Matt.

DNA fingerprinting is not infallable. Don't be swayed by the cop's n robbers crime series that are on every channel in to thinking that because DNA points at a suspect that they have the right person.

In fact IMO, the prosecution service places far too much emphasis on DNA evidence. It's just another clue, like any other clue but people have been led to believe that it is like god coming down and pointing the finger of blame at someone so therefore it can't be argued against.

GTM

 

[rob]

depending on the circumstances , dna is circumstantial evidence and if you have a good enough reason for your dna being there then you have a good enough reason not to worry.
in the past however there have been crimes where someone has been convicted and my first impression was " jeesus i hope for his sake he is guilty".
as for prison , there are a lot of people who dont deserve to be there and there are people who deserve a lot worse.
for the people who dont deserve to be there , such as possesion of drugs (but thats just my opinion) there should be compulsory drug rehabilitation centres to deal with their problem. locking them up wont prevent it from happening again , in fact there are more drugs readly available in prisons than there are on the streets.

 

[Matt F]

I do appreciate that DNA is not everything but it would be dammned useful if any DNA recovered from a crime scene could be looked up on a database. Of course you would need other evidence as well but it would be a good starting point plus it might stop some people actually committing crime in the first place (probably not though).

Matt.

 

[Paul Ranson]

Working in the Middle East (Saudi Arabia) on entry to the country my British Passport was taken off me and held by my Company ( British Aerospace) i was then issued with a Saudi ID book ( Iquama), if stopped by a policman was subject to a SR1,000( £600) fine if you didn't have it on you. I kept mine on me at all times and had no problems with that.

You were in a country where there is no right of free speech, association or movement. How can you have 'no problems with that'?

Whether I have something to hide or not I shouldn't be expected to prove that on demand of a police officer or other state employee. FWIW the current plan is that you won't have to carry this so called 'ID' card. I don't see that compromise lasting.

Paul

 

[julian2002]

what happens if my id card is lost? do i become a 'non person'
what if it is stolen and used to commit a crime? do i go to prison?
has anyone seen brazil?
cheers


julian

 

[michaelab]

Paul - if you're stopped by the police today (even for a minor driving offence) you will have to show some form of ID. The rather absurd law that allows you to drive without carrying your driving licence means they might have to issue you with a "producer" (document instructing you to take your license, insurance docs etc. to a police station to prove you do have them). In order to fill out the producer correctly they need to know who you are and where you live otherwise they can't follow it up in case you don't produce your documents. If they think that you might be giving them a bogus identity they can arrest you or at least hold you on the spot until someone can prove your identity.

Wouldn't it all be a lot simpler if you had to carry an ID card with you? At least people should have to carry their driving license when they're driving!

Michael.

 

[michaelab]

what happens if my id card is lost? do i become a 'non person'

No, you just use the same reams of documentation you currently have to use everywhere to just get a new one.

what if it is stolen and used to commit a crime? do i go to prison?

See above. You report it lost and get a new one.

Countries which have ID cards (that is, the rest of the world apart from the UK) don't seem to have any major problems dealing with such predictable problems.

has anyone seen brazil?

Yes, excellent film. It's based on George Orwell's 1984 and as I said in my first post on this thread - it's a bit of a stretch to go from ID cards to a totalitarian nightmare.

Michael.

 

[rob]

a bit far fetched but here goes.
£80 quid seems an extortionate ampount of money for a plastic card does ot not? a passport dosent even cost this much.

now for the far fetched bit , technology being as advanced as it is , it is possable for these cards to be chipped and tracked via satalite.

perhaps its a new tracking system to keep tabs on us.
it would stand to reason if the goverment are claiming that they are used to combat crime and terrorism because an id card wouldent be very effective in combating neither crime nor terrorism.

they may as well just put microchips in our foreheads eh?

 

[michaelab]

rob - you've been watching too much TV mate (or smoking too much dope ).

Michael.

 

[rob]

i wish , the tv is crapp and i havent quite grasped the art of hydroponic cultivation but i did , for a while think the x files was a true story.

 

[Goomer]

it's a bit of a stretch to go from ID cards to a totalitarian nightmare.

I thought so too, but Her Majesty, The Queen, pulled it off in style in her most recent speech.

 

[blakeaudio]

i'm sure the bolsheviks thought the same.

 

[Sid and Coke]

You were in a country where there is no right of free speech, association or movement.
Paul

OK i'll speak from first hand experience.

No right of free speech,
I never encountered any problems on that score, mind you it's not as if I'm any kind of hard line political activist.

Association,
I can assure you now that i had an absolutely brilliant social life, in fact my social life took an almost vertically downwards spiral on returning to the UK, of the few things that i miss about living in Saudi Arabia the social side of things is near the top of my list.

Freedom of Movement.
Admittedly due to the fact that my company only gave me a limited exit-re-entry visa then i could only drive to Bahrain or fly the Dubai once every 4 to 6 weeks. Although these adjoining countries have a more relaxed attitude to Alcohol and other social things, they are also very expensive, i visited both a few times but never felt as if i was missing anything by staying in Saudi. I had a busy and active social life, all of the usual refinements, eg Unrestricted Satellite TV, etc. I was free to leave the country at any time if i wished. My youngest 6 year old daughter became very seriously ill at one point ( with e-coli 0157), my company and the local Saudi authorities bent over backwards to get me back to UK by the shortest and quickest possible route, in fact it was me who chose to go later on a BA night flight. I am forever gratefull for their efforts. ( my daughter survived the ordeal but suffered from chronic and irreversable Kidney damage, you never get it all in life !)

Whilst in normal circumstances as an outsider the border controls where very strict, and it could often take hours to get in and out ( especially if you where drunk) i noticed that those people with GCC passports had no such hold-ups.

How can you have 'no problems with that'?

Hmm.. I found getting paid a shit load of tax free cash helped a lot.

 

[Paul Ranson]

you will have to show some form of ID.

I don't think so. They would have to have a reason to arrest you.

And they are not allowed to stop you unless they have a good reason. Random stops are not allowed. Although I suspect this government would like to change that.

Paul