Planning to buy an entirely new system.

[bottleneck]

Hi Gargal

Power and volume aren't the same thing with amplification.

In comparison - here I have a 150w solid state amplifier, and a 9watt valve amplifier.

The 9 watt valve amplifier sounds louder, irrespective of the speakers I have tried it with.

If you have a chance to return the Leema, I'd do so if the improvement in sound quality wasn't sufficient to cover the outlay - rather than it's potential power output.

The cables of a DEQ2496 are not an issue - irrespective of the types it takes. adaptors are available for small change - you just need to start shopping for these things in Maplins rather than 'audiophile bobbins R us'

I do practice what I preach, incidentally. I have tens of thousands of pounds worth of hifi, strung together with freebie cables and adaptors from Maplins etc. Hopefully very obviously I have tried much more expensive alternatives.

 

[Stuart]

Hi there. Thanks Stuart - maybe that is the best approach.

How would wiring up the DEQ2496 work? I've got quite a lot of inputs going through, and I can't really see how to connect them up, or how many inputs the DEQ2496 can take. (To me, it looks like there are only balanced ins - is this right? That would be a problem for me.)

I have mine in the the tape loop so I can use the amplifier to switch the analogue sources, with the DEQ doing analogue to digital - wizard tricks - digital to analogue back into the amp. I also have the squeezebox connected by optical cable, using the DEQ as a DAC for digital stuff.

The Behringer is designed to take single ended input/output using adaptors. I don't recall the pin configuration off hand but it is detailed in the manual (you ought to be able to download this from their site). When I ordered mine I added a set of cables with it so it was ready to go. Don't forget to order the microphone as well - it does not come with the DEQ as far as I recall. Details in the manual once again.

Regards,

Stuart.

 

[gargal]

re the leema and sound quality - well, £750 is a lot, but I do need a new amp. I can't stick with what I've got, as it's breaking.

It's a choice between getting the Leema for £750 (reduced from £1200) or downgrading to something like the Arcam FMJ A18.

If the EQ is going to lose some of the detail and precision of the Leema anyway, it might be more sensible to go with a cheaper amp.

re: the EQ's plugs, it looks like it's rather lacking in inputs. I could use the balanced input from my mixer, but ideally I'd have a load more for tuner, cd, tv, etc.

Thanks for all the help/advice. I cannot believe how much work this is!

 

[gargal]

I have mine in the the tape loop so I can use the amplifier to switch the analogue sources, with the DEQ doing analogue to digital - wizard tricks - digital to analogue back into the amp. I also have the squeezebox connected by optical cable, using the DEQ as a DAC for digital stuff.

The Behringer is designed to take single ended input/output using adaptors. I don't recall the pin configuration off hand but it is detailed in the manual (you ought to be able to download this from their site). When I ordered mine I added a set of cables with it so it was ready to go. Don't forget to order the microphone as well - it does not come with the DEQ as far as I recall. Details in the manual once again.

Regards,

Stuart.

Thanks Stuart. Sorry, but I'm still not quite clear.

You have the tape output going in to the EQ? (Into the balanced inputs?) And then the signal comes out of the EQ and goes back to the amp? How does this work?

Wouldn't that mean that you'd want the amp set to the input you want to listen to (in order to send this signal to the tape out) and to the input the EQ is plugged in to?

Ta.

 

[gargal]

Someone from Leema (a former acoustic engineer) has also just advised me that I'd be better off going for bass traps than an EQ.

Getting the volume altered for the amp would cost £100 + shipping.

 

[Stuart]

Hi,

Pretty simple arrangement assuming your amp (not familiar with Leema) has a typical tape loop (tape loops were designed to so that you could monitor your recording from the tape deck in real time). Select the input you want to use - eg. phono and switch on the tape monitor circuit. This directs the signal from your turn table to the tape loop, allowing it to pass through the EQ and back into the amp.

Stuart.

 

[bottleneck]

passive EQ IS better than active EQ the engineer is quite right.

however, it would cost a lot more than £200 ! ... and without the measurement equipment to see whether what you're doing is a success, you're just putting expensive panels all over the room to unknown effect.

the ideal is to use the passive EQ to do as much as possible, leaving little for a behringer to do. If things are mostly right you can do without it altogether etc.

 

[Stuart]

If the EQ is going to lose some of the detail and precision of the Leema anyway, it might be more sensible to go with a cheaper amp.

That's a real big 'if' there! If you set it up properly it will be pretty transparent.

re: the EQ's plugs, it looks like it's rather lacking in inputs. I could use the balanced input from my mixer, but ideally I'd have a load more for tuner, cd, tv, etc.

You will still use the amp for input selection, looping the signal through the EQ and back to the amp - see previous reply.

Thanks for all the help/advice. I cannot believe how much work this is!

Hopefully worth it in the end!

Someone from Leema (a former acoustic engineer) has also just advised me that I'd be better off going for bass traps than an EQ.

Maybe, maybe not. Certainly cheaper doing it digitally. And much more flexible. You could always try digital EQ then, when happy with the results, use the measurements/settings to work out what physical room treatment thingys you'd need.

One thing about this hobby - there's always more than one way to skin a cat

Regards,

Stuart.

 

[gargal]

Ta Stuart. No tape loop on the Leema, so I got confused. Thanks for the explanation though.

I'm actually enjoying listening to some music at the moment, which is a nice distraction.

I'm thinking of sticking with the Leema and putting up with the volume troubles, as it does sound good with the Dalis, and partly to avoid sucking up masses more time (I don't know what I'd replace it with!). There is now the added problem of a tape loop being necessary if I wanted electronic EQ though. So many things to balance up!

I need to put some shelving up for my hi-fi soon, and could try to build some bass traps at the same time. While I can't predict how well this will work, from what I've read, putting a bass trap in a corner is unlikely to do any harm. I was thinking of doing one long one in the corner created by the beam across the roof of the room?

I need to have another think now I've realised the Leema isn't appropriate for an EQ if I do need one in the future.

 

[cooky1257]

I may have missed this but why is your source so hot?
Your speakers aren't that efficient so I'm questioning the set up of your amp/source if the vol is way too loud too early on the volume knob.
What are you feeding your amp with?

 

[gargal]

I may have missed this but why is your source so hot?
Your speakers aren't that efficient so I'm questioning the set up of your amp/source if the vol is way too loud too early on the volume knob.
What are you feeding your amp with?

I think it must be the amp. It seems loudest with CDs, but also with DVD and DJ mixer.

Considering I'm still in my twenties and like Drum and Bass, I listen to music pretty quiet, but I don't think I'm seriously abnormal in comparison to the average person.

The Leema adviser said people normally listen between 10 and 11 on the dial yet I'm lower than 8. When listening at sevenoaks I was a bit concerned about this, but there I had the amp several notches higher (up to 8) to produce the same level of perceived volume. Maybe my room makes it seem louder? The sevenoaks room did have a lot of hi-fi boxes stacked up on the walls, probably acting as dampeners?

I was surprised at how loud it seemed with the volume turned right down though.

 

[Stuart]

I'm thinking of sticking with the Leema and putting up with the volume troubles, as it does sound good with the Dalis, and partly to avoid sucking up masses more time (I don't know what I'd replace it with!). There is now the added problem of a tape loop being necessary if I wanted electronic EQ though. So many things to balance up!.....I need to have another think now I've realised the Leema isn't appropriate for an EQ if I do need one in the future.

Hi,

Did you try the Arcam with the Dali's at the shop? If they match well (ie. solve the volume issue) and sound good together it may be easier for you to change to the Arcam. The Arcam also appears to have a proper tape loop (2 in fact) that would allow you to use the EQ.

Bottom line is, irrespective of how good a deal you appear to be getting, if it doesn't work well in your system you wont be happy long term and therefore it is not a good deal!

Regards,

Stuart.

 

[gargal]

Hi,

Did you try the Arcam with the Dali's at the shop? If they match well (ie. solve the volume issue) and sound good together it may be easier for you to change to the Arcam. The Arcam also appears to have a proper tape loop (2 in fact) that would allow you to use the EQ.

Bottom line is, irrespective of how good a deal you appear to be getting, if it doesn't work well in your system you wont be happy long term and therefore it is not a good deal!

Regards,

Stuart.

The don't do Arcam at my local sevenoaks. I listened to a £500-ish Marantz amp, and the Leema was certainly better, but from what I've read, I think the Arcam would be a better fit than the marantz (although I'd need to listen to it first).

Given the problems with my room, it might be that the difference in quality between the Leema and cheaper stuff isn't going to be made the most of. Especially if the Leema operates less well at low volume, making my A/B comparisons at a higher volume rather moot.

The other danger is - buying a cheaper amp and being a bit unhappy with the sound of it for the next twenty years.

(LOL - I woke up worrying about this stuff the morning. This is less fun than I thought it would be! Thanks for all the advice though, I'd feel even more lost without it.)

 

[gargal]

I asked Leema what they thought, and they replied:

"What we have here is a question of gain not power.

"If you used a 10 watt amp, you would still run the volume control at the bottom because the gains would be similar. The difference would be that the 10 watt amp runs out of steam on dynamic peaks.

"Pulse, at 80 Watts, is not a high power design by our standards (our Altairs are 550W/8 ohms - 1800W 1 ohm) but what it will give you, at your modest levels, is infinite headroom and dynamics.

"This is the aim of Altairs for those who normally use mode power and less efficient speakers.

The gain mod will achieve everything that you want - so we can do that whenever you are ready."

The Leema amp still sounds nice, and is a definite improvement over my old amp, it's just strange things sounding so different at home when you've been choosing them in a shop's listening room. Maybe I should have paid more attention to people suggesting second-hand, as being able to listen in advance is of limited use. I think I'll go that route for a CD player.

 

[bottleneck]

The gain modification will give you greater 'range' on your volume pot.

You would get the same effect by putting some attenuators on, - google rothwell attenuators to see. These are simply interconnects with a little resistor on the end.. you can DIY them in about 10 minutes if you have a soldering iron.

So, more range on the volume pot, but the same sound at a given volume.

I think if you plan on enjoying hifi for many years, an investment in a mic, and some software would show you a lot about what youre hearing in this room, and in future rooms.

If you want to go the Leema suggested route of passive EQ, you would be able to try it, measure before and afterwards and see if your peak/suck out had been improved upon.

Mr Leema is right - this will make for better sound - but its oh-so-much-easier to plug a behringer and mic in, and let it do all the hardwork for you.


read the post by 'claudius' below.
He had similar problems to you.
Similar experience levels, and spent money with an acoustics guy in the end to come and sort it all out. Money well spent, I'm sure he feels.

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/thoughts-software-EQing-taking-room-readings-mics

 

[danworth81]

Whichever way u go with the gain issue I personally think u should keep the amp as u like the sound and the speakers will still have more to come once run in properly, a DEQ would be an excellent choice to if ur cables and connections can cope which I guess not as I dont suppose u are using balanced cables.

On the other foot I had a comment made to me about me running Monitor audios on my gear and today I brought home a pair of Ruarks which are more expensive than the ma's and I hate them ALOT!!!!!

So I rigged up a set of active KRK rp5's which have been sat in their boxes new for a week to my dac and mac with a gemini mixer, which has bass, mid and treble controls, bearing in mind its all new and the cables are too (all silver high breed) so none of it has been run in! and it sounds absolutely awesome! All in cost me £700 as opposed to a £15.000 high fi!

I am happy but gutted!

 

[gargal]

It would be good to get that DEQ2496 - at least partly out of curiosity if I could get it cheap on e-bay. But then it would fit in with the amp. Hmmm... I don't think it will be the primary solution for me. I listen to music in so many different positions, the sound seems to vary around my room so much, I'm often listening with my girlfriend (who get the prime spot!). It would be good to have, as a measuring device as much as for adjustments, but I could only manage one if I spotted a real bargain at the moment.

Although I do remember putting on a club-night, and having a friendly sound engineer going through and EQing the system - what a massive difference that made. (sorry about this - I'm dithering.) Maybe it would be the best thing to do here.

Also, my girlfriend's insisted that we can't keep living out of boxes, so we've spent most of my money for a CD player at Ikea (she's so selfish). I've currently got an ancient Technics sl-pg490, and think my upgrade here will have to be second-hand too. I saw some mention of being able to use the DEQ2496 as a DAC, but I've not been able to confirm exactly how I'd wire that up. The DEQ2496 has an s/pdif optical in - would I be able to connect the CD player to that from the optical out (sorry, not up on the acronyms)? Would that bring a significant improvement in sound quality?

Thanks for all the advice, and reading all this. I feel like it's been going on for ages.

@ Dan: I've got to let you know - most people would be gutted. It shows the level of masochism required in the pursuit of the audiophile hobby!

Shouldn't I be able to get convertors for balanced to RCA?

Ps: Thanks bottleneck. I did read that thread you linked to. It gave more food for thought that I'm still digesting.

 

[danworth81]

Cd Player can go to deq and be used as a dac, optical in to analogue xlr out to amp, u cannot use adapters as the deq will be fully balanced I thing, using adapter makes it psuedo balanced as xlr has 3 conductors and rca 2, the dac in the deq can be upgraded by audiosmile to make it even better in the future.

For now tho ur cd player will be a transport only and the dac will be ur soundboard.

Also where u mention different seating positions u can pre install the best sound arrangement for each position and store it seperately on the deq, I think u can do 4 in all.

P.S. I think I may just go with some active speakers now, and sell my hifi, think ay be less hassle as I think hifi, true hifi is for instruments and pa/dj gear is for music, actually I hink I will start a thread on it now, see what people say.

 

[Stuart]

Cd Player can go to deq and be used as a dac, optical in to analogue xlr out to amp...

That's how I have the Squeezebox connected to the DEQ. This would allow Gargal to keep his current CD player, using it as a transport into the DEQ.

...u cannot use adapters as the deq will be fully balanced I thing, using adapter makes it psuedo balanced as xlr has 3 conductors and rca 2, the dac in the deq can be upgraded by audiosmile to make it even better in the future.

You can happily use adaptors with the DEQ. They have designed it to work single ended with appropriate adaptors. This is detailed in the manual. It is not an issue. Mine is connected using cables that convert the balanced connection to single ended.

For now tho ur cd player will be a transport only and the dac will be ur soundboard.

Also where u mention different seating positions u can pre install the best sound arrangement for each position and store it seperately on the deq, I think u can do 4 in all.

Just had a look at mine and it appears to have 64 memory slots, of which I have used 14 to store different profiles.

Stuart.

 

[Stuart]

...Also, my girlfriend's insisted that we can't keep living out of boxes, so we've spent most of my money for a CD player at Ikea (she's so selfish). I've currently got an ancient Technics sl-pg490, and think my upgrade here will have to be second-hand too. I saw some mention of being able to use the DEQ2496 as a DAC, but I've not been able to confirm exactly how I'd wire that up. The DEQ2496 has an s/pdif optical in - would I be able to connect the CD player to that from the optical out (sorry, not up on the acronyms)? Would that bring a significant improvement in sound quality?...

Yes. So long as the Tech has an optical out you can use it as a transport and the DEQ as a DAC, with or without the PEQ or other TLAs switched on. No need to spend money to replace the CD player when you have more fundamental issues to resolve first.

Stuart.