Technics SL1200/1210 debate

I'm not sure who that's all aimed at - is it me?
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Not specifically no, it is aimed at the underlying culture of this forum as it became in more recent years after the endless subjectivist/objectivist debates that basically killed it off. This issue was very poorly managed imho and was precisely what inspired me to start our own forum with a clearly stated subjectivist flavour and where there is now more posting activity than on here (although viewing stats here are still higher.)

I don't wish to gloat on this as I joined this place right in the very beginning back in '03, as well as Groovehandle, its predecessor. It's a shame that the sneering negativity, scepticism founded on sheer ignorance, reductionism, obtuseness and argument for argument's sake devoid of constructive knowledge/experience whatsoever (this does not refer to either you or Rob Holt, btw) has turned this place into tumbleweed zone.

The thread may appear to have been hi-jacked but the point I was trying to make was that pidgeon-holing hi-fi into budget, mid-fi and high-end does not for maxumum sound-per-pound value make.

Casting prejudices and possibly brand allegiances aside, it is actually possible to obtain high-end performance from something modestly priced.

The Technics SL1200 and 1210 decks are just one example that I offered and from that point the sneering naysayers weighed in in all their oafish ignorance and forced the discussion to concentrate on these turntables only.

There are plenty of other examples including Glenn Croft's new range of preamps; Beresford DACS, bespoke equipment produced on a cottage industry/artisanal basis, modified Chinese valve amps; no-nonsense, inexpensive but high performance interconnects and cabling that does the job without the bling; restoring/modifying professionally older kit etc.

It is a case of open minds and ears and thinking outside of the proverbial box.

Unfortunately some folk will not leave their comfort zones and will defend not only their right to do so but justify it to everyone else ad nauseum in the most desperate, negative and sneering fashion.

"Setting Son" who is obviously too ashamed of his real self to even give us a first name, you need to understand that giving people stick, as you so elequently put it is, not the most productive use of bandwidth. Nor is it a sign of being the most socially adept.
 
Steven Toy said:
Yes, giving people "stick" is definitely what you do best. Rarely does much of a constructive nature trip from your keyboard. Btw, what T/T do you use?

So you were at RD's bake-off? Which one were you in the photographs posted on pfm?
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If by stick you mean asking someone to qualify a wild claim, then yes, I suppose you are correct. He still hasn't done so, of course. No surprise here however.

What relevance does the tt I use have?

No I wasn't at Richards bake off. I was at his place picking up some kit. Your interest in what I look like is slightly... erm.... uncomfortable.
 
James, I really don't wish to engage in discussion with you any more, certainly not about hearsay and gossip and zero experience of your own (FOP + pairs of headphones spreading ear infections does not count). You are an ignorant fool where hi-fi is concerned.
 
Steven my name is Lee. I quite often sign off posts using my name, but don't let the truth get in way of a good personal attack.

You interest in me personally in becoming quite worrying. Are you a stalker?
 
No I wasn't at Richards bake off. I was at his place picking up some kit. Your interest in what I look like is slightly... erm.... uncomfortable.
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I would not worry yourself on that score although you clearly have much to hide. Stalker? No.

Are you a bit of a drama queen?

I think so.

If by stick you mean asking someone to qualify a wild claim, then yes, I suppose you are correct.
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Opinions based on personal experience using our ears are not "wild claims."

We have too many self-appointed consumer watchdogs on these boards. :rolleyes:
 
Steven Toy said:
James, I really don't wish to engage in discussion with you any more, certainly not about hearsay and gossip and zero experience of your own (FOP + pairs of headphones spreading ear infections does not count). You are an ignorant fool where hi-fi is concerned.
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What do you mean by "gossip"? The problem starts, Steven, when you hype something up, people then turn up expecting to have their socks blown off, and are understandably rather disappointed when their socks remain undisturbed.

I may well be an ignorant fool, but at least I can tell when an amplifier is clipping. If you can't tell, what does that make you?

Ear infections are not disseminated via headphones. In fact, headphone listening is a very good way of assessing source components.
 
Steven you are right. Everyone should be able to make any claim they like without any need to back it up. Of course the guru couldn't back up his claim for commercial / legal reasons, but a little honesty would have been nice.

AoS amps are less well engineered than most Chinese ones costing half the price. OK with you?
 
Have you heard/used the AOS amps in question?

If not, no, not ok with me. Reporting on personal experience, sharing findings, inviting others to investigate your findings for themselves and reporting back.

This is what constructive hi-fi discussions are about.

There are too many smug consumer watchdogs about trying to save music lovers from themselves who are quite simply ignorant of this very simple try-for-yourself-and-compare-notes process.

They are allowed to ruin decent forums as this one once was.
 
David Price said:
YNMOAN - yes, I also think there's an issue with suspension on belt drive decks.
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Well, I think that there can be an issue - but I don't think that there is inherently an issue; if you believe otherwise we will have to agree to disagree.

David Price said:
Interestingly, Gurt(?) Pederson did a mod for Michells, which locks the springs into an up and down motion only, so they can't go sideways. Never heard this but I am told it tightened up the sound.
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Hmm..I've seen the mod you refer to. No doubt it did stabilise the suspension. However, it will also have somewhat reduced its isolation properties (swings and roundabouts with this particular approach).

David Price said:
BD speed instability is a combination of a number of factors then, but fundamentally it comes down to the belt's inability to transfer motor torque in a stable and consistent way.
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Again, we will have to agree to disagree. As far as I am concerned belts do not possess an inherent inability to transfer motor torque in the manner you suggest. It all depends on the specific belt and the specific situation/implementation.

David Price said:
DD has other issues; noise being the big one. That means you've got to get the motor perfect, and the drive circuitry too. It's got to start right, rather than relying on an elastic band to cure the problems by decoupling the noise.
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Noise is one of the issues DD has - however, I have not found noise to be the biggest hurdle. As it happens I have been looking into direct drive for the last six months - but that's a whole different story for another time.

If one wants to do DD, my recommendation would be to buy an SP10 and work from there.
 
Steven Toy said:
...very simple try-for-yourself-and-compare-notes process.
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But don't, whatever you do, compare with the "giant" TT which you are claiming it beats.

You did exactly the same thing with your modified valve amp, IIRC, claiming it was better than a number of £5000 amplifiers, but never specifying which ones, nor whether any comparison had ever taken place.
 
HI Steven

It's certainly true that ZG can be the most 'fiesty' of forums. I wish this didn't scare people off. I like passionate debate, until it falls into name-calling.

The thread on ''polls on interconnects'' run by Rob was an excellent example. It didn't fall into the usual ''interconnects are a waste of money'' ''no they're not they're really important and you're deaf'' ad nauseum... It seemed to moderate itself wonderfully.

I hope that ZG will become / stay / be / the most 'unregulated' of forums - a place where you can have and hold strong opinions and voice them. I think it's got a lot of that - which is why I love it :)

I'm no moderator by the way, and haven't been for years and years.

I agree totally with 'out of the box' thinking - and encourage new developments. Who knows the direction of future audio? New ideas are exciting and to be encouraged.


On the Technics debate - this is interesting. I already know/admire the SP10. We have D.P and others saying a modded Technics (sl1200?) produces music at the highest level, and SCIDB for example (a DJ of 20 years experience) - saying it's a good DJ deck but nothing extra-ordinarily special (sorry to put words in your mouth Dean).

I think a short WAV file (with same arm and cart) on a SP10/SL1200/LP12/SME 20 would be a wonderful thing for people to download and compare.

Zerogain needs a lab !!
 
But don't, whatever you do, compare with the "giant" TT which you are claiming it beats.
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But you're not exactly prone to comparing things yourself, are you James?

You bought your (discounted) SME on reviews and 'brand reputation' - what else did you compare it to apart from the pseudo-Ninja LP12 which JW foisted on you?

You'd likely never have discovered active ATCs, nor Mana, had JW not introduced you to them, and would still be arsing about with some Epos floorstanders, or something else of their ilk.

No doubt you also bought your original LP12, Naim CDS2 52/250 (later 135s) on their 'brand reputation'; in short, you don't have a clue about hi-fi, which incidentally you candidly admitted to me on the phone once if you remember?

Basically, when it comes to hi-fi, you're little more than a clueless clown with a (reasonably) fat wallet, yet you have the gall to question people (I'm not talking about me) who have real knowledge and experience for the sake some banal exercise in points scoring :rolleyes:

You're quite pathetic really. Only your occasional bouts of wit save you from being a truly sad puppy! I doubt you'll ever change.
 
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I heard a VTL valve power amp costing around 5k. It was rather unmusical to my ears but I can see why those in the market for "valves" with 5k burning a hole would buy it. It couldn't do bass to speak of, was overly lush in the mid and the timing was all over the place.
 
Steven Toy said:
But you're not exactly prone to comparing things youself, are you James?

You bought your (discounted) SME on reviews and 'brand reputation' - what else did you compare it to apart from the pseudo-Ninja LP12 which JW foisted on you?

You'd likely never have discovered active ATCs, nor Mana, had JW not introduced you to them, and would still be arsing about with some Epos floorstanders, or something else of their ilk.

No doubt you also bought your original LP12, Naim CDS2 52/250 on their 'brand reputation'; in short, you don't have a clue about hi-fi, which incidentally you candidly admitted to me on the phone once if you remember?

Basically, when it comes to hi-fi, you're little more than a clueless clown with a (reasonably) fat wallet, yet you have the gall to question people (I'm not talking about me) who have real knowledge and experience for the sake some banal exercise in points scoring :rolleyes:

You're quite pathetic really. Only your occasional bouts of wit save you from being a truly sad puppy! I doubt you'll ever change.
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Wow. The toys are no longer in the pram! Steven, has someone else hacked your account? ;-)

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=49656

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It had cost me just under £1800 in total but could well see off many a commercial amp up to the 5k mark.
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James have you anything constructive to say or do you just wish to compete with Lee as to who can be the loudest consumer guardian saving folks from parting with their hard-earned on expensive rubbish while willy waving about the 'prestige' kit you can afford?
 
People do get rather lathered up when they've spent too much money though, don't they?

And Lee still hasn't told us what T/T he uses - come on Lee, spill the beans! It's relevant because I'd like to know what your 'benchmark' is in that area.
 
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Steven Toy: Have you heard/used the AOS amps in question?

There you go making the same error as the guru. I didn't mention sound quality just engineering. If you read back through this thrad you'll find I also haven't mentioned the performance of the Technics, except to say it might be very good. If you have trouble understanding his very simple difference then let me know and I will try to put it in a simpler manner.

If you had understood perhaps you would have asked me to substantiate my claim about the AoS amps, which is all I did with the tt claim. I'm sure the engineering quality of the AoS kit is fine, btw.

Perhaps you two could put your names at the end of your posts so we know which one of you is posting?
 

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