Thread Derailment

[Richard Dunn]

I had, of course, forgotten about the dancing salesman! It's a long time since I've seen one of those, and I suppose I presumed they had died out - they always used to remind me of Bruce Forsyth, I'm not sure why.

I agree specs are pretty meaningless when they are divorced from a proper listen to equipment. They can be useful if you do understand what they mean, but they certainly do not give a full picture of what a piece of equipment will actually sound like.

You don't understand what they mean because they are meaningless, they were only used in the first place to confuse you and bullshit you.

*NO* spec correlates to how an amplifier plays music, it doesn't even tell you most of the time how much power you need, as anyone who has listened to a so called 3-4 watt single ended 300b type design will tell you. IT IS ALL BULLSHIT!

They serves one purpose and one purpose alone to define a circuit for the designer, production engineer and repairer, nothing more.

 

[jonesi]

The discussion on specs vs ears is an interesting one and deserves a thread of it's own

When I started the thread what I meant by thread derailment was when somebody makes a post that is way off topic, often to bait another person who has contributed earlier in the thread.

 

[zanash]

What, so that the arrant nonsense spouted by technically illiterate, wooly minded and gullible new age audiophools just goes unchallenged?

Dream on, Zanash.

With regard to the "plastic" debacle, PMMA is a plastic and a polymer. No one should take offence at the accurate description and classification of a material.

I for one will always challenge foo. I will always ask for hard evidence. I will always disregard the"I trust my ears" argument.

Chris

thats exactly the point I'm making .....many thanks for your timely post

I could not have highlighted it better

the tone and arrogance is just breathtaking ...and of course its only just your opinion ! and holds no more sway than mine

 

[zanash]

Simon, I think you have misread my post.
Read it again - it agrees with your position, that any position can be challenged.

ah yes quite a bit of not reading posts is the cause of considerable strife....

yes of course all positions can be challenged ....but if the object is just cause offence then in my opinion this should not be allowed . If a cogently thought through and worded ,without the usual slanderous or insulting comments then there should not be a problem ......these are general points not aimed at anyone in particular ...just in case you have an inferiority complex and think I'm talking about you ! [thats humor too]

 

[johnjbell]

You don't understand what they mean because they are meaningless, they were only used in the first place to confuse you and bullshit you.

*NO* spec correlates to how an amplifier plays music, it doesn't even tell you most of the time how much power you need, as anyone who has listened to a so called 3-4 watt single ended 300b type design will tell you. IT IS ALL BULLSHIT!

They serves one purpose and one purpose alone to define a circuit for the designer, production engineer and repairer, nothing more.

You are getting yourself very worked up there, Richard (I hope you don't mind me calling you that), whilst I wasn't actually disagreeing with you. Your point of view is an extreme one, but I understand what you are saying. Certainly listening to equipment is much more important than figures - but I do not agree that they are totally meaningless, nor do I agree that I am confused - which I am certainly not!

I have often been bullshitted - but clearly not on this thread.

 

[sq225917]

Pete, that would be fine, if posters didn't throw childish hissy fits and accuse people of trying to defame their brand simply because they chose to use one of the many correct words to describe a material they use in their products.

We are talking about calling Acrylic, plastic, can you imagine why it would be such a cause for concern? Acrylic is after all, despite Richard's initial claims to the contrary, both a plastic, and a polymer.

All he needs to do is apologise for being incorrect, acknowledge that his cases are indeed made out of plastic, and move on. He's only pretending to be upset by it because he was exposed for not even knowing that acrylic was a polymer.

If he responded like any normal person this would have been a none event, but he's made it what it is.

 

[Richard Dunn]

You are getting yourself very worked up there, Richard (I hope you don't mind me calling you that), whilst I wasn't actually disagreeing with you. Your point of view is an extreme one, but I understand what you are saying. Certainly listening to equipment is much more important than figures - but I do not agree that they are totally meaningless, nor do I agree that I am confused - which I am certainly not!

I have often been bullshitted - but clearly not on this thread.

Show me *one* amplifier spec that corresponds with how that amplifier plays music. OBVIOUSLY the can be extremes 5% THD for example, but we are *never* dealing with those extremes.

I have personally heard a 3-4 watt single ended 300B into a pair of semi horns sound louder than a 50 watt amplifier, do you understand why? well I do, but I design so I have to, but explain to a customer, why! meaning less and open to misintepretation which is what happens all the time.

I am far from worked up I have argued this point for years and I am not going to stop now. There is required to be a constant voice against the complete bullshit that specs are unless we will end up back to the bad old days of magazine reviews where the reviewer didn't even listen to the product they were reviewing. They just measured them with antiquated equipment, giving meaningless numbers and telling people what to buy according to what had the best number. So what happened everyone played games in how to *qualify* those number to make them seem better - a classic marketing mans exercise, and those idiots are the ones that want to impose this regime on us - "how dare customers make their own decisions with their own ears"

 

[nando]

that rings the bell, what manufacturers did not rely on reviews? i wonder!
nando.

 

[johnjbell]

Show me *one* amplifier spec that corresponds with how that amplifier plays music. OBVIOUSLY the can be extremes 5% THD for example, but we are *never* dealing with those extremes.

I have personally heard a 3-4 watt single ended 300B into a pair of semi horns sound louder than a 50 watt amplifier, do you understand why? well I do, but I design so I have to, but explain to a customer, why! meaning less and open to misintepretation which is what happens all the time.

I am far from worked up I have argued this point for years and I am not going to stop now. There is required to be a constant voice against the complete bullshit that specs are unless we will end up back to the bad old days of magazine reviews where the reviewer didn't even listen to the product they were reviewing. They just measured them with antiquated equipment, giving meaningless numbers and telling people what to buy according to what had the best number. So what happened everyone played games in how to *qualify* those number to make them seem better - a classic marketing mans exercise, and those idiots are the ones that want to impose this regime on us - "how dare customers make their own decisions with their own ears"

Take your point absolutely about particular amplifiers driving efficient speakers, and have much sympathy with your ideas about how equipment has been marketed over the years. I only use 'figures' as a rough guide as to the capabilities/features of equipment - I use my ears to decide whether or not to buy - usually. And I have already said that spec does not equate to ability to reproduce music, which is what it all should be about.

Ultimately are you saying Richard that one cannot trust any opinion apart from one's own? I think that was what I was getting at when I spoke about this hobby being a subjective one.

 

[Fnuckle]

I think it's time for all of us to climb down from Mt. Angry for a while and look at this whole thing dispassionately.

The arguments put forward here (on both sides) are so divorced from reality as to make them little more than navel gazing of the worst kind. Like it or not, people are not prone to outbreaks of level-headed objectivity. Similarly, people are not louche aesthetes, rejecting all in favour of the highest art.

These arguments have become polarised with time. Hi-Fi is not made in a 'no humans involved' environment, but neither is it made by magic elves. Most companies use a balance of objective and subjective testing to design and develop their product lines. The sooner we come to some kind of rapprochement - or at least actively create a no-mans land - the better. Because we are all looking like a bunch of obsessive compulsive nerds arguing over nothing for no good reason, and if a 'normal' read this, they would run off and buy Bose.

 

[Richard Dunn]

Ultimately are you saying Richard that one cannot trust any opinion apart from one's own? I think that was what I was getting at when I spoke about this hobby being a subjective one.

Yes, because they all have agendas.

This what makes the Bake-Off and the Bake-Off show so important to the new industry. A *large* majority of sales in the future are going to be second hand, and I believe already are, dealers will be marginalised (get the wordplay ) We have to rely on our own resources, yet cannot expect a manufacturer not to think his products are best. You are on your own, with maybe a little help from your friends.

The future is community, and community is forum based, and yet so many still have agendas to keep the old ways, and some have such egos they think that their birthright is to dictate their truth (SQ is a classic example of this here).

Beware the marketing man he is amoungst you pretending to be a normal human being, instead of a pollutant to your pursuit of your music, your system, your pleasure.

 

[sq225917]

Richard there's no ego involved in me pointing out when your statements of fact and science are simply incorrect, only a first rate narcissist like yourself would consider it such.

We are aware of who's marketing, that's why you have TRADE under 'your' name.

 

[RobHolt]

Show me *one* amplifier spec that corresponds with how that amplifier plays music. OBVIOUSLY the can be extremes 5% THD for example, but we are *never* dealing with those extremes.

Output impedance.

Just a couple of ohms (typical of tubes) will both alter the frequency response by several db and impair bass control.
It stands out like a sore thumb.

Another is RIAA accuracy in phono amps.
Many are several db off the mark and this is clearly audible - even 0.25db is audible and can cause a listener preference if it covers a couple of octaves, which it usually does in these circuits.

Clipping behaviour.

How does the amplifier behave close to clipping?
This is particularly important where small amps are used and they can often be clipping.
Some do it more gracefully than others. You can measure it and hear it.

THD.

The figure you've given at 5% is indeed extreme (though again not for some tube amps) but 1% is audible. 1% predominantly 2nd harmonic is subjectively a lot nicer than a spray of higher order distortion.

But I do agree with you on one level - many specs don't matter too much particularly when taken to the nth extreme. However, for me that just says that once amplifiers reach a base level of technical competency you needn't worry any more.


This thread is certainly derailed

 

[Richard Dunn]

Output impedance.

Just a couple of ohms (typical of tubes) will both alter the frequency response by several db and impair bass control.
It stands out like a sore thumb.

Another is RIAA accuracy in phono amps.
Many are several db off the mark and this is clearly audible - even 0.25db is audible and can cause a listener preference if it covers a couple of octaves, which it usually does in these circuits.

Clipping behaviour.

How does the amplifier behave close to clipping?
This is particularly important where small amps are used and they can often be clipping.
Some do it more gracefully than others. You can measure it and hear it.

THD.

The figure you've given at 5% is indeed extreme (though again not for some tube amps) but 1% is audible. 1% predominantly 2nd harmonic is subjectively a lot nicer than a spray of higher order distortion.

But I do agree with you on one level - many specs don't matter too much particularly when taken to the nth extreme. However, for me that just says that once amplifiers reach a base level of technical competency you needn't worry any more.


This thread is certainly derailed

But what do those have to do with musical preference. If what you say is true no one would ever buy a valve amp, people like Bottleneck wouldn't exist. Most of what these people love and swear by spec disastrously in your terms. So why do they prefer them, do they prefer the distortion, can a bit of distortion actually add to musical pleasure.

Consider a string instrument, in reality it should just acoustically amplify the string. BUT the Japanese tried it and no body but their own people would buy them, until they realised they had to buy a Stradivarius and actually listen to it and find out why it sounded that way, and that certainly wasn't scientific, every time they tried to measure it they got it wrong. (now they have to find out why an old Alfa Romeo sounds the way it does and they might produce interesting cars)

Whether you like it or nor your hi-fi is a musical instrument, or most people want it to be, for the very reason that when we try to copy by measuring it then it sounds crap!

 

[johnjbell]

But what do those have to do with musical preference. If what you say is true no one would ever buy a valve amp, people like Bottleneck wouldn't exist. Most of what these people love and swear by spec disastrously in your terms. So why do they prefer them, do they prefer the distortion, can a bit of distortion actually add to musical pleasure.

Consider a string instrument, in reality it should just acoustically amplify the string. BUT the Japanese tried it and no body but their own people would buy them, until they realised they had to buy a Stradivarius and actually listen to it and find out why it sounded that way, and that certainly wasn't scientific, every time they tried to measure it they got it wrong. (now they have to find out why an old Alfa Romeo sounds the way it does and they might produce interesting cars)

Whether you like it or nor your hi-fi is a musical instrument, or most people want it to be, for the very reason that when we try to copy by measuring it then it sounds crap!

Absolutely agree with you here, Richard. It's certainly why I love hifi - because of the musical enjoyment it gives me, so in many ways it is the same as my violin, which also gives me similar pleasure. That I have to more actively 'play' the latter is perhaps a difference, but there is much truth IMO in what you have said here.

Interestingly, the Japs continue to be unable to get close to reproducing a fiddle of the quality of the Strad, Amati, Guarneri etc. The best they have made aren't at all bad, but not in that street. On the other hand, they have successfully reproduced the grand piano, having examined what made a fine Steinway, and coming up with the best Yamaha Concert Series pianos - different but world class in their own right.

 

[bottleneck]

I like to think I'd still exist Richard

No black hole or anything

musically somewhat diminished without my lovely valve amps, but otherwise unharmed..

 

[RobHolt]

It has everything to do with musical preference, at least in my world and I think many others. I use an AT cartridge in preference to a Linn one for a reason, a P9 in preference to an LP12 for a reason, Quad ESLs in preference to say Tannoys for a reason etc.
All of that kit has known characteristics - aspects of the technical performance that can be related to the way they perform, and therefore reproduce music.

This has nothing to do with equipment being bad, though clearly bad equipment does exist. The characteristics of certain valve amps mean that you need to consider matching very carefully IMO in order to mitigate the negatives. But if you do that - fine you get a great result. But it helps hugely to understand what's going on technically in order to do that.

Let me give you an example.
Listen to a full range Lowther based speaker on the end of a typical SS amp and it sounds uptight, hard and shouty. Under those circumstances you could easily dismiss the speaker as being rubbish, and spend the rest of your life oblivious to the very real virtues.
Now try the Lowther with a single ended valve amp, with 8 ohms output impedance, very little NFB and a wee dollop of 2nd harmonic distortion.
Sounds like a very different and very much better loudspeaker because you've largely removed the electrical damping (which it doesn't need), the power transfer into the load will apply some beneficial EQ, and the low order distortion subjectively gives texture and sweetness to what was a rather hard and brittle presentation.

So whats the point in knowing this?
Well the listener in the first audition, not understanding why his chosen match was technically poor will have made a mistake and arrived at the wrong judgment.
A little understanding of just what might be going on will have encouraged further experimentation in the right area.

I remember way back as a boy running a passive preamp into a Quad 405. The power amp was located near the speakers and I had about 5m of coax connecting the passive to the 405. Sounded alright.
Then I read about 'Archer 300 ohm ribbon cable' in Hi-Fi Answers and how fantastic this cable sounded, so open and fresh, and it was dead cheap from Tandy.
So off I go and buy a reel, replace the coax and well - WOW - it really is far more open and fresh sounding. Must be great cable yes?
No, must be a simple case of way too much capacitance in the coax rolling off the treble. Didn't know that then, didn't really understand such things, so drew completely the wrong conclusions.

So rather than saying we should disregard specs because people won't or don't understand them, I say teach them. Use forums like this to spread knowledge and empower people to make better decisions.

 

[flatpopely]

Another good point about specs is that if buying direct or s/h you have some chance of matching up kit. 300b and Saras is not going to be a happy combo. An ultra low output MC needs a phono stage of the correct gain to work. No published specs, or a lack of understanding of the same, could lead to a crap sounding system built from great parts.

 

[RobHolt]

Exactly, and the care over matching can be as brutal or a subtle as people wish.

 

[Richard Dunn]

It has everything to do with musical preference, at least in my world and I think many others. I use an AT cartridge in preference to a Linn one for a reason, a P9 in preference to an LP12 for a reason, Quad ESLs in preference to say Tannoys for a reason etc.
All of that kit has known characteristics - aspects of the technical performance that can be related to the way they perform, and therefore reproduce music.

This has nothing to do with equipment being bad. The characteristics of certain valve amps mean that you need to consider matching very carefully IMO in order to mitigate the negatives. But if you do that - fine you get a great result. But it helps hugely to understand what's going on technically in order to do that.

Let me give you an example.
Listen to a full range Lowther based speaker on the end of a typical SS amp and it sounds uptight, hard and shouty. Under those circumstances you could easily dismiss the speaker as being rubbish, and spend the rest of your life oblivious to the very real virtues.
Now try the Lowther with a single ended valve amp, with 8 ohms output impedance, very little NFB and a wee dollop of 2nd harmonic distortion.
Sounds like a very different and very much better loudspeaker because you've largely removed the electrical damping (which it doesn't need), the power transfer into the load will apply some beneficial EQ, and the low order distortion subjectively gives texture and sweetness to what was a rather hard and brittle presentation.

So whats the point in knowing this?
Well the listener in the first audition, not understanding why his chosen match was technically poor will have made a mistake and arrived at the wrong judgment.
A little understanding of just what might be going on will have encouraged further experimentation in the right area.

I remember way back as a boy running a passive preamp into a Quad 405. The power amp was located near the speakers and I had about 5m of coax connecting the passive to the 405. Sounded alright.
Then I read about 'Archer 300 ohm ribbon cable' in Hi-Fi Answers and how fantastic this cable sounded, so open and fresh, and it was dead cheap from Tandy.
So off I go and buy a reel, replace the coax and well - WOW - it really is far more open and fresh sounding. Must be great cable yes?
No, must be a simple case of way too much capacitance in the coax rolling off the treble. Didn't know that then, didn't really understand such things, so drew completely the wrong conclusions.

So rather than saying we should disregard specs because people won't or don't understand them, I say teach them. Use forums like this to spread knowledge and empower people to make better decisions.

I think you just agreed with me that they don't work, and then said we should all be taught them