Thread Derailment

[RobHolt]

I think you just agreed with me

That there isn't enough understanding?

Yes.

So go teach!

Part of the reason I now confine my online audio life to one forum (this one) is because there is just so much shit and misinformation out there in forum land...... well its quite shockingly bad at times and it is largely presented in a void of technical understanding.
I'm not singling out any particular site, but inhabiting one is quite enough!
It gets worse with each passing decade IMO, and I largely blame the uber subjectivists for saying that specs and technical understanding don't matter. They should have adopted a balanced approach but instead threw the baby out with the bathwater, and we are where we are.

 

[Labarum]

Consider a string instrument, in reality it should just acoustically amplify the string. BUT the Japanese tried it and no body but their own people would buy them . . .

This argument is entirely bogus. I violin makes it distinctive sound through the interaction of the body (the resonator) and the string and bow used to excite the resonator. Take away the resonator and you lose an essential element of the instrument. An electric violin is a different instrument. The use of pick-up coils means the output of loudspeakers is first sounding of the instrument. A contact microphone on the body of an acoustic violin is in a different category - the contact mic is converting already existing sounds to electrical signals for further processing. I guess the close or distant microphone picking up the sound the violin is projecting into the the room produces the most authentic recording of a violin.

The digital electronic piano - the Clavinova and similar products - is different again. At it's heart the instrument is a computer manipulating sampled sounds of real acoustic pianos. The digital electronic organ is in a similar category. There is an interesting article on those here. Note what is said about the start of a note, it's steady state and it's decay. All is simulated and the results can be very impressive.

http://www.makinorgans.co.uk/Info.aspx?ID=18

To attempt the simulation of a bowed string instrument by digital sampling would be much more difficult because the start, steady state and decay of a note is much more variable with a bowed string, and the musician has many more variables under his direct control.

There have been attempts to use various plastics to make violin bodies, but nothing resonates like wood. In contrast, modern highly controlled production engineering makes some very fine brass and woodwind instruments.

 

[Richard Dunn]

This argument is entirely bogus. I violin makes it distinctive sound through the interaction of the body (the resonator) and the string and bow used to excite the resonator. Take away the resonator and you lose an essential element of the instrument. An electric violin is a different instrument. The use of pick-up coils means the output of loudspeakers is first sounding of the instrument. A contact microphone on the body of an acoustic violin is in a different category - the contact mic is converting already existing sounds to electrical signals for further processing. I guess the close or distant microphone picking up the sound the violin is projecting into the the room produces the most authentic recording of a violin.

The digital electronic piano - the Clavinova and similar products - is different again. At it's heart the instrument is a computer manipulating sampled sounds of real acoustic pianos. The digital electronic organ is in a similar category. There is an interesting article on those here. Note what is said about the start of a note, it's steady state and it's decay. All is simulated and the results can be very impressive.

http://www.makinorgans.co.uk/Info.aspx?ID=18

To attempt the simulation of a bowed string instrument by digital sampling would be much more difficult because the start, steady state and decay of a note is much more variable with a bowed string, and the musician has many more variables under his direct control.

There have been attempts to use various plastics to make violin bodies, but nothing resonates like wood. In contrast, modern highly controlled production engineering makes some very fine brass and woodwind instruments.

Why does what you are saying make the argument bogus, they are not directly comparable, obviously. What it is is an analogy, and a close one. Everything you say in your post could be transfered to hi-fi, changing components, voicing, catering for different people tastes - *it is still music* - You make my point for me, as it is mostly a *subjective* processs.

 

[Labarum]

Why does what you are saying make the argument bogus.

I give up.

Our minds will never meet, Richard.

 

[Mescalito]

Yes, because they all have agendas.
QUOTE]

That is just a tad rich coming from you, Richard.

Chris

 

[Mescalito]

But I do agree with you on one level - many specs don't matter too much particularly when taken to the nth extreme. However, for me that just says that once amplifiers reach a base level of technical competency you needn't worry any more.


This thread is certainly derailed

My point exactly. Beautifully and succinctly stated.

Chris

 

[jcbrum]

. I give up ...

Giving up seems to be the logical conclusion here ........ and is therefore unavoidable.

Richard's arguments, and his points of view, are constrained, understandably, by his need to maintain the USP's (unique selling points) of his product.

He is after all arguing from a commercial stance with the need to sell product. His designs are based on his own interpretation of electronics and physics.

There is a parallel here, in the desire not to use metal cabinets, with current AVI equipment, who have also chosen to cease housing their electronics in metal cabinets.

However I believe that AVI considers the metal cabinets, or indeed any cabinets, to be redundant on the grounds of cost, and now house their amps, pre-amps, DAC's, and active crossovers, directly in the 'wooden' cabinets of the loudspeakers.

Maybe Richard could use the same techniques, and retain his USP's without resorting to plastic cabinets ??

Or perhaps produce plastic loudspeakers with all the electronics inside ??

JC.

 

[Mescalito]

Whether you like it or nor your hi-fi is a musical instrument, or most people want it to be, for the very reason that when we try to copy by measuring it then it sounds crap!

The above statement is the very abnegation of the definition of hi fi. Hi fi is a tool for reproducing sound. Anything it adds or subtracts from the original sound is, by definition, a fault.

Surely it should be the aim of every competant designer to reduce artifice and colouration to the absolute minimum achievable.

Any designer who does not strive for this is NOT a designer of hi fi equipment. He/she is a designer of sound effects devices.

Chris

 

[Labarum]

There is a parallel here, in the desire not to use metal cabinets, with current AVI equipment . . .

And again I give up, as I have in other places where the whole purpose of a couple of posters is to introduce the name and philosophy of a particular product, and call all who don't wholeheartedly embrace the approach "phools".

 

[sq225917]

Not much point making speakers out of plastic unless that plastic happens to be a heavy mineral loaded one or a lightweight carbon reinforced one.

 

[bottleneck]

Richard has said that he'd rather his amplifiers were refered to as 'acrylic' - I can't help but think people are STILL using the word 'plastic' just to wind him up.

Really, it's not a playground, it's an audio forum..

there SHOULD be a difference..

 

[Richard Dunn]

Giving up seems to be the logical conclusion here ........ and is therefore unavoidable.

Richard's arguments, and his points of view, are constrained, understandably, by his need to maintain the USP's (unique selling points) of his product.

He is after all arguing from a commercial stance with the need to sell product. His designs are based on his own interpretation of electronics and physics.

There is a parallel here, in the desire not to use metal cabinets, with current AVI equipment, who have also chosen to cease housing their electronics in metal cabinets.

However I believe that AVI considers the metal cabinets, or indeed any cabinets, to be redundant on the grounds of cost, and now house their amps, pre-amps, DAC's, and active crossovers, directly in the 'wooden' cabinets of the loudspeakers.

Maybe Richard could use the same techniques, and retain his USP's without resorting to plastic cabinets ??

Or perhaps produce plastic loudspeakers with all the electronics inside ??

JC.

If you think I would do anything like AVI especially create shills like yourself to pollute virtually the whole of the audio forum network, then you are seriously mistaken. Tell us please, where is the ADM9 made

 

[jcbrum]

Not much point making speakers out of plastic unless that plastic happens to be a heavy mineral loaded one or a lightweight carbon reinforced one.

Possibly so, ............. but the examples you give are still 'plastic' just as much as Richards 'acrylic' ....... which you have so vehemently stated.

 

[Richard Dunn]

Once again for the umptenth time, why would any normal person believe one thing, but manufacture something else, and then talk about it as a third thing. That is the work of marketing men and retailers.

I am a normal human being. I believe and have tested and proved a set of ideas, so I build them, I refer to my principles and ideas and opinions when I post, that is not a marketing man or promotion based, it is simply reality and normality.

 

[Mescalito]

Giving up seems to be the logical conclusion here ........ and is therefore unavoidable.

Richard's arguments, and his points of view, are constrained, understandably, by his need to maintain the USP's (unique selling points) of his product.

He is after all arguing from a commercial stance with the need to sell product. His designs are based on his own interpretation of electronics and physics.

There is a parallel here, in the desire not to use metal cabinets, with current AVI equipment, who have also chosen to cease housing their electronics in metal cabinets.

However I believe that AVI considers the metal cabinets, or indeed any cabinets, to be redundant on the grounds of cost, and now house their amps, pre-amps, DAC's, and active crossovers, directly in the 'wooden' cabinets of the loudspeakers.

Maybe Richard could use the same techniques, and retain his USP's without resorting to plastic cabinets ??

Or perhaps produce plastic loudspeakers with all the electronics inside ??

JC.

Careful, JC, you have been quite good in keeping your AVI shilling activity lightly veiled so far, but the veil is beginning to slip a little bit.

Chris

 

[jcbrum]

If you think I would do anything like AVI especially create shills like yourself to pollute virtually the whole of the audio forum network, then you are seriously mistaken. Tell us please, where is the ADM9 made

This is ad hominem Richard. It brings you no credit. You are simply telling lies.

ADM9's are made in the UK. I've watched it being done. They do use components such as resistors, capacitors, and ICs, which are made outside the UK, but so does everyone, including you.

The piano black cabinets are done abroad because the finish is not available in the UK. Veneered cabinets are UK manufactured.

The circuit boards are assembled and populated in the UK and are then fitted to the backplates in the UK.

Currently all quality control and testing is done in the UK, mostly by Martin Grindrod personally, - I have seen him do it.

JC.

 

[jcbrum]

Careful, JC, you have been quite good in keeping your AVI shilling activity lightly veiled so far, but the veil is beginning to slip a little bit.

Chris

I'm no shill Mescalito, I'm an AVI equipment user and owner. I speak from my personal point of view as an Audio enthusiast.

My remarks were directly related to the point under discussion, which was the use or otherwise of metal cabinets.

Perhaps you are indulging in a bit of thread crapping and de-railing.

It is perhaps you who needs to be careful Mescalito.

JC

 

[jcbrum]

I quite like the term 'plastic' .........

......... to me, it conveys the use of advances in technology .......

........... I don't think it does imply frailty, and cheap inadequacy, .......

The racing car industry probably thinks similarly, and certainly high performance boats embrace plastics wholeheartedly, to give just two examples.

JC

 

[Mescalito]

Richard has said that he'd rather his amplifiers were refered to as 'acrylic' - I can't help but think people are STILL using the word 'plastic' just to wind him up.

Really, it's not a playground, it's an audio forum..

there SHOULD be a difference..

Richard state that he abhors all forms of BS & marketing spin when describing his products. However, he obviously recognises that the "P" word has negative connotations, and insists that his cases are made from acrylic, a material which generically, is a "p" word.

This is suspiciously close to BS & marketing spin, surely? He can't have his cake and eat it.

Chris

 

[bottleneck]

no, personally I think that in this case Richard is right - some people who have had enough of his internet personality are looking for ways to have a go. This is one of the subtle ways.

I would say that a Gyrodec has an Acrylic lid.

I would say that my own amplifier has a brushed aluminium front panel, and a copper top panel.


If I was speaking to Michell Engineering, I certainly wouldnt call their turntables plastic, most especially if they'd already made the point that they are acrylic and would prefer I used that term. To do otherwise is just rude.