Why do you visit audio forums?

If you have a choice of, say, half a dozen record players, ..... and they all sound different, ...... then surely only one of them, or possibly none of them, meets the strict requirement of high fidelity (faithful reproduction).

All the rest of them must surely contain some distortion or other of the original sound.

If one then attempts to justify any one of them by expressing a 'personal preference', ..... then surely you can no longer be interested in hi-fi.

Personal preference is irrelevant surely, ......... the yard stick must be the original standard.

JC
 
Richard Dunn said:
So I will ask the same question you ducked a few posts ago. If a customer prefers the sound of one of the products you think are crap because the numbers are not good enough should he buy the product he prefers or buy the one with your better numbers?
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I didn't duck it, Richard. Rob answered it admirably. I fully endorse his reply.
Of course I would go for kit which sounds better to me.

Chris
 
jcbrum said:
If you have a choice of, say, half a dozen record players, ..... and they all sound different, ...... then surely only one of them, or possibly none of them, meets the strict requirement of high fidelity (faithful reproduction).

All the rest of them must surely contain some distortion or other of the original sound.

If one then attempts to justify any one of them by expressing a 'personal preference', ..... then surely you can no longer be interested in hi-fi.

Personal preference is irrelevant surely, ......... the yard stick must be the original standard.

JC
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I just can't believe this post "Personal preference is irrelevant" FFS who do you think you are to dictate to people like this. But there again I have watched you and your "boss" do the same thing on forum after forum.

There is *nothing* but personal choice in this even if that choice is Bose, education is something people have to desire, not having it forced down them. If reality is not their kick then so what it is their money.

Some friends of my wife came for dinner with my main system going in the background, he missed the muddled definition one note bass of his Bose radio, he called it rich and smooth, he couldn't understand why people would want big boxes and clarity and information, for him it was daft, and education from a superiority POV would change nothing. It is his choice and he thinks hi-fi enthusiasts are daft, about the furthest up the ladder you could push him maybe would be to a pair of ADM9s :rolleyes: ;)
 
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Richard Dunn said:
I just can't believe this post "Personal preference is irrelevant" FFS who do you think you are to dictate to people like this. But there again I have watched you and your "boss" do the same thing on forum after forum.
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This is ad-hominem rubbish Richard.

It's a perfectly logical conclusion.

I realise that even f*ckwits have opinions and preferences, but it doesn't mean they're worth anything.

JC
 
jcbrum said:
This is ad-hominem rubbish Richard.

It's a perfectly logical conclusion.

I realise that even f*ckwits have opinions and preferences, but it doesn't mean they're worth anything.

JC
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So unless people do what you tell them they are worthless. Did you train your marketing with Ivor T by chance?

All we can do is show and make available to listen what we have, it is up to the individual to make their choice, and that is the nightmare of all marketing men, they want the control to sell to you.

I sell to no one, I allow them to buy if they want to.
 
Richard Dunn said:
So unless people do what you tell them they are worthless. Did you train your marketing with Ivor T by chance?
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I particularly dislike the sales tactics employed by Linn and Naim dealers. The shame of it is any sensibly educated person can detect them with a little careful thought.

It's not the people, it's the choices they make which might be worthless.

Any fool can waste his time and money by coming to false conclusions, whether or not he allows himself to be influenced by others.

Richard Dunn said:
All we can do is show and make available to listen what we have
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That's not enough, you have to show why you think it is a sensible choice. That's why so many manufacturers in high-end audio have been found to be charlatans.

Richard Dunn said:
it is up to the individual to make their choice, and that is the nightmare of all marketing men, they want the control to sell to you.

I sell to no one, I allow them to buy if they want to.
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You might do better if you improved your marketing.

JC.
 
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jcbrum said:
You might do better if you improved your marketing.

JC.
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What is "better", I do what I do because that is what I want to do, can there be anything better. I am bullet proof because I have no overheads, people can buy or not it matters not apart from to my bank account and how many holidays I have and how much the tax man gets.
 
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JC,

Personal preference is irrelevant surely, ......... the yard stick must be the original standard.
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Therein lies the problem -- who has the original standard to use as a yard stick?

Joe
 
In reality, ... in hi-fi terms, ... the recording and production crew.......

but it would be nice to say the original artists, or the creators of the original sound.

One way to evaluate this is to do a blind comparison (essential, since the senses are so easily fooled) between say, a clarinet being played, and a recording of the same.

When a reasonable assembly of peers cannot detect the difference, ......

... then you possibly have a yardstick.

JC.
 
Richard Dunn said:
I do what I do because that is what I want to do, can there be anything better......

........ I am bullet proof because I have no overheads, people can buy or not it matters not apart from to my bank account and how many holidays I have and how much the tax man gets.
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You are just pleasing your-self. ...... Not a very satisfactory business model ..... you aren't bullet proof without customers.

I don't think I would want to invest in a business which was just designed to be subservient to the peccadilloes of it's sole employee.

Buying a product is making an investment in the producers.

The product must meet my requirements, not the vagaries of some ill-defined scheme.

That is often what makes the difference between successful manufacturers and the also-rans.

JC
 
JC,

One way to evaluate this is to do a blind comparison (essential, since the senses are so easily fooled) between say, a clarinet being played, and a recording of the same.
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Good idea, but I'd want to try several musicians playing together. Hi-fi is a lot more than recreating the sound of an instrument.

Lemme 'splain -- ages ago, I heard a pair of full-range Apogees reproduce a triangle with such stunning accuracy that I thought I had heard the perfect speaker. An utterly convincing dem. A triangle, right there in the room.

Then I heard the Apogees trying to recreate an orchestra. Ugh...

Joe
 
I agree Joe, I was trying to keep it simple.

I have used a symphony orchestra, as well as smaller groups of musicians, to produce my own recordings, for the purpose of evaluating equipment.

It's a tall order, but getting better with advances in technology.

JC.
 
Joe Petrik said:
JC,


Therein lies the problem -- who has the original standard to use as a yard stick?

Joe
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Telling someone what they should prefer is wrong.
Here i agree with Richard that some extreme objectivists get it wrong by insisting that speakers have to have a ruler flat response, or that they must use amps with <0.00005% thd.

People should use whatever they like if it pleases them.

I just want them to understand what is going on, and that is where objective testing is so valuable.
 
jcbrum said:
You are just pleasing your-self. ...... Not a very satisfactory business model ..... you aren't bullet proof without customers.

I don't think I would want to invest in a business which was just designed to be subservient to the peccadilloes of it's sole employee.

Buying a product is making an investment in the producers.

The product must meet my requirements, not the vagaries of some ill-defined scheme.

That is often what makes the difference between successful manufacturers and the also-rans.

JC
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Be assured JC I don't want you as a customer :D and I am very happy to jog along behind you and Ash in the Hi-Fi hall of fame and profit, with a smile on my face.
 
You still don't get it Richard, we are with you here, people should buy the one they like the sound of the best, we just disagree about the need to see it to 'hear it'.

I don't think any of us are proposing that a blind dealer demo is the way to go to make all your purchasing decisions, gear is much easier to 'find' in your own room in your own set-up. But there's no reason why a little bit of unseen A/B can't make the home demo process more valuable.

I have no interest in flat frequency responses, what's the use my ears are up and down like a whores drawers from too much clubbing in my youth, I want what sounds right to me. But I want to ensure that only the sound affects my choice.

We'll all come round and discuss it loudly first thing on Saturday in your room eh?
 
RobHolt said:
Do you visit in order to learn, pick up tips and improve understanding?

Do you enjoy posting and pushing your POV ?

Is the social side important to you and do you enjoy feeling part of a community?

Do you like a good row, either watching car crash style of actively participating?
Do you enjoy the threads that get heated and bad tempered?
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My ability to understand is very limited, and I am too old a dog to learn new tricks.

I don't have a POV to push really.

I enjoy ranting, if done well, but I don't like to see people getting all het up over bits of wire and boxes of electronics. Such dogmatism is best left to religious nutters.
 
jcbrum said:
If you have a choice of, say, half a dozen record players, ..... and they all sound different, ...... then surely only one of them, or possibly none of them, meets the strict requirement of high fidelity (faithful reproduction).

All the rest of them must surely contain some distortion or other of the original sound.

If one then attempts to justify any one of them by expressing a 'personal preference', ..... then surely you can no longer be interested in hi-fi.

Personal preference is irrelevant surely, ......... the yard stick must be the original standard.

JC
Click to expand...

At the last big record player bake-off I went to I had 3 winners.

1 record player was the most detailed

Another had the best bass and the most dynamic bass and midrange

Another was the best value for money

I couldn't argue with anyone who picked any of my 3 winners. They were all good in their own way. Personal preference would be highly relevant. It would depend what compromises the owner was happiest with.

I have 2 main pairs of speakers at home. 1 has better bass. The other better midrange and treble. Which is better? Personal preference again.

I have 2 power amps at home. 1 has a more natural and detailed midrange. The other a more grippy bass. Personal preference again.

I have 2 cartridges which are identical apart from the tips: 1 a spherical, the other a super fine line. The spherical is the flat track bully. The super fine line has better tracking. Personal preference again.
 
sq225917 said:
You still don't get it Richard, we are with you here, people should buy the one they like the sound of the best, we just disagree about the need to see it to 'hear it'.

I don't think any of us are proposing that a blind dealer demo is the way to go to make all your purchasing decisions, gear is much easier to 'find' in your own room in your own set-up. But there's no reason why a little bit of unseen A/B can't make the home demo process more valuable.

I have no interest in flat frequency responses, what's the use my ears are up and down like a whores drawers from too much clubbing in my youth, I want what sounds right to me. But I want to ensure that only the sound affects my choice.

We'll all come round and discuss it loudly first thing on Saturday in your room eh?
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You are not welcome in my room, if you come in shouting or announcing who you are you will be thrown out, and I have every legal right to do so.
 

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