Why do you visit audio forums?

[Mescalito]

What a continuing waste of time and space

There are just some very simple rules.

1/ test results and specs give you a basic understanding.
2/ they are only needed by designers, builders and repairers as to everyone else they are a hindrance, as they will confuse your decisions.
3/ for the end user the *only* things that are important in order of importance are a/ your music b/ your system c/ your room, and how do you decide which of these you use / own? by listening to music.
4/ *everything* else is bollocks or marketing, or even some strange form of negative marketing as we see here.

No, Richard, it is not bollocks.

I agree that marketing BS is the bane of this hobby. In order to see it for what it is, a certain level of understanding of the underlying principles is required.

If someone makes a claim that putting your mains cables under tension produces a tauter sound, do you simply say "oh, that's great, I'll go and find a way to tension my cables!". Of course you wouldn't (at least I HOPE you wouldn't!).

No you examine the idea, bring your knowledge to bear, and then dismiss the idea as typical audiophool nonsense.

Peter belts craziness, green pens, foo cables, ), cable lifters.....they all defy the laws of physics and as such belong in the same category as fairies at the bottom of the garden.

We buy hi-fi to listen to music. That's all.

All hi-fi manufacturers prey upon the desire of technically illiterate to improve their system. In this, you are no different from Mission, Linn, Naim, Cyrus et al. The entire bloody industry, with almost no exceptions is riddled witgh snake oil.

Chris

 

[Mescalito]

If your senses are so unreliable why is this subject important for you, as you cannot partake in it without your senses, so what else is important?

It's not just my senses, Richard. Yours are equally unreliable & subject to illusion. Unless you are not actually a human being, you cannot trust your senses alone to judge anything accurately. They will lie to you.

Chris

 

[titian]

We buy hi-fi to listen to music. That's all.

Why do you want to listen to music?
Everybody listens to music to feel good, for their own ego, not for the music itself.
You wouldn't hear music that you don't like for the purpose to understand it. You hear hours of music that you like, that give you pleasure.
Music isn't the important factor: the own ego is
You tell people not to have illusions when you yourself have them.

 

[Mescalito]

Why do you want to listen to music?
Everybody listens to music to feel good, for their own ego, not for the music itself.
You wouldn't hear music that you don't like for the purpose to understand it. You hear hours of music that you like, that give you pleasure.
Music isn't the important factor: the own ego is
You tell people not to have illusions when you yourself have them.

Titian,

to use a good old anglo-saxon word, BOLLOCKS. Liking a piece of music has bugger all to do with ego. And yes, I very often listen to "difficult" music because I want to know where the performer/composer is coming from. Very often, I find I do actually get to like what at first I percieved as dissonant noise.

In my experience, many "audiophiles" choose their music in large part by how good it makes their kit sound.

And, let us face it, when it comes to musical taste, rationality plays no part at all.

However, when it comes to pushing electrons around in a controlled manner, rationality, precision and order are the only arbiters. Anything else is witchcraft, religion or chalatanry.

Also, Titian, you entirely miss the point of my post. Of course I am as subject to sensory illusion as you, Richard, or anyone else is. Unlike some, however, I freely acknowledge the fact. I am as capable as the next man of hearing what appear to be fundamental differences between bits of kit, only to have those differences completely disappear when listening to the same bits of kit blind.

Chris

 

[Richard Dunn]

No, Richard, it is not bollocks.

1/ I agree that marketing BS is the bane of this hobby. In order to see it for what it is, a certain level of understanding of the underlying principles is required.

2/ If someone makes a claim that putting your mains cables under tension produces a tauter sound, do you simply say "oh, that's great, I'll go and find a way to tension my cables!". Of course you wouldn't (at least I HOPE you wouldn't!).
No you examine the idea, bring your knowledge to bear, and then dismiss the idea as typical audiophool nonsense.

3/ Peter belts craziness, green pens, foo cables, ), cable lifters.....they all defy the laws of physics and as such belong in the same category as fairies at the bottom of the garden.

We buy hi-fi to listen to music. That's all.

4/ All hi-fi manufacturers prey upon the desire of technically illiterate to improve their system. In this, you are no different from Mission, Linn, Naim, Cyrus et al. The entire bloody industry, with almost no exceptions is riddled with snake oil.

Chris

1/ no they are not, they are meaningless to normal hi-fi enthusiasts, they just get in the way and can be destructive to correct personal decision.

2/ there you go, you come up with these stupidities again. Show me anywhere anyone has said this. Of course it is nonsense, so just because of some stupid extreme thought process of yours then all other personal senses based choices are bad, this is obviously arrant nonsense.

3/ again citing extreme subjectivism is not a proof to validate your extreme objectivism, you and Basil are just as nutty as PB, just the opposite extreme.

4/ no it is not, it has nothing to do with snake oil it has to do with reality. Now listen carefully - REALITY IS people listening to their music with their ears in their room on their system, and making decisions and having opinions from that - FACT! so who the F*CK!! do you think you are telling them they are deluded!! There is one person deluded in this conversation and it is you, and your objectivist claptrap is the only snake oil in this conversation. OK I agree the extremists and rip of merchants on the others side deserve to be referred to as snake oil as well, but you call anything normal like cables and amplifier difference as the same, you sir are the nutter in this conversation no one else, if we followed your POV we would end up in the Hi-Fi dark ages.

 

[Mescalito]

1/ no they are not, they are meaningless to normal hi-fi enthusiasts, they just get in the way and can be destructive to correct personal decision.

2/ there you go, you come up with these stupidities again. Show me anywhere anyone has said this. Of course it is nonsense, so just because of some stupid extreme thought process of yours then all other personal senses based choices are bad, this is obviously arrant nonsense.

3/ again citing extreme subjectivism is not a proof to validate your extreme objectivism, you and Basil are just as nutty as PB, just the opposite extreme.

4/ no it is not, it has nothing to do with snake oil it has to do with reality. Now listen carefully - REALITY IS people listening to their music with their ears in their room on their system, and making decisions and having opinions from that - FACT! so who the F*CK!! do you think you are telling them they are deluded!! There is one person deluded in this conversation and it is you, and your objectivist claptrap is the only snake oil in this conversation. OK I agree the extremists and rip of merchants on the others side deserve to be referred to as snake oil as well, but you call anything normal like cables and amplifier difference as the same, you sir are the nutter in this conversation no one else, if we followed your POV we would end up in the Hi-Fi dark ages.

Ah, that's more like it. That's the Richard of old!

1. If anyone considers spending possibly £000s on kit without taking the trouble to gain a little knowledge about what will be an acceptable level of performance, they actually deserve to be hoodwinked by the foo-wallahs. A spec will give you some small insight as to whether a bit of kit will reach a minimum standard. It allows you to dismiss out of hand things like the wackier tube amps or to avoid a gross mis-matck betwee amps & speakers. It is NOT a substitute for audition.

Of course, being a, shall I say, "intuitional" designer & manufacturer, it is very much in your interest to promote the "fu*k the science, just listen to what I say, especially after I or someone like me has filled your head with new-age audiophoolery claptrap. Don't trust the science, because I am either too ignorant to know what is happening or too much of a charlatan to care. I will be your guru and light the way to audio heaven for you. And when I've finished, I'll take you next door to the Scientologists and they can relieve you of even more of your cash.

2. Of course the example I quoted was ridiculous. It was meant to be. But no more ridiculous than saying that putting kit in an acrylic case makes an audible difference! No one has suggested that my example has been put forward as a route to audio Nirvana, but plenty of equally loopy things have.

3. My objectivism is merely rationalism. If I percieve a difference in the sound of a system purportng to have been caused by a change in that system, I want to know what has changed, and what caused it. If no other evidence of change is forthcoming, I will try to reproduce the change under blind conditions. So far, with 100% consistency, the changes for which there is no rational explanation other than a psychological one disappear under blind conditions. I freely acknowledge that I am as capable of hearing imaginary differences as the next man. It is for this I employ blind testing. It goes some way to removing the non -sonic influences which colour our perception of sound. That way, I do not end up wasting money on wanky cables or other snake oil.

4. Richard Dunne talking about reality? Learning that you were a serious stoner in your youth actully went a long way to explaining your fantasies and instability.
Come on, Richard, you live in your own little audio version of Mormonism. You publish missives on hi fi fora based purely on your opinion. You can seldom back up your opinion with any evidence other than what you believe you hear. Richard, opinion is not evidence. And when challenged to prove you assertions under blind conditions, you bluster your way out of it. You are like a priest giving a sermon on transubstantiation. You can offer no explanation for it other than your faith in their existence. Well, I don't buy that kind of weak-minded thinking from priests and I don't buy it from you either.

And, in answer to your question as to whether I think someone who hears a difference in sound purely because, say, there are no metal screws in an amplifier case is deluded, you bet your sweet ass I am!

And, coming from someone who is hell bent on promoting the irrational and imaginary, your comment on the hi-fi dark ages is particularly rich.

And this time no lily-livered smileys.


Regards,

Chris

 

[sq225917]

There's really no way around it Richard. Seeing what gear you are listening to can only bias what you hear, not seeing it cannot effect the same bias.

So removing the potential source of sighted bias can only help you towards making a decision on sonic grounds alone. it really is that simple, the logic is irrefutable.

If you prefer to have your component selection affected by what preconceptions you have about a certain piece of gear rather than chosen solely on how it sounds, then by all means dismiss the benefit of unsighted selection.

There's no shame in a person saying that bought something based on how it looks and how that makes them feel about it, and how that affects what they hear. None at all. Plenty of people live under all sorts of pre-conceived delusional ideas that dictate their day to day lives. (FFS you think you are actually a hifi designer).

 

[Richard Dunn]

This claptrap just show everyone who and what you are, some sort of twisted individual with twisted logic. You don't seem to realise that everything written here is just insulting all the member of this forum apart from your little happy band of extreme objectivists. You are telling the members that they have no right to listen to their music unless they achieve your dictated level of understanding of silly expensive boxes that tell you something is working to design spec and little else.

You tell them they are deluded because they do not have the knowledge of those boxes and what they do, like you do!

You tell them they have been and will be hoodwinked by foo-wallahs! because they don't know how to use a distortion analyser or scope or "think" they understand the numbers they are being given.

Sorry you are the deluded foo-wallah, deluded by your own ego into thinking your knowledge of how to use those boxes makes you superior to people who use their ears. Your arrogance is astounding.

And that is what you have now just clearly shown everyone.

Now to the personal comments. I have never once told people what to do, even if they inquire to me and ask me if they should buy my products I tell them to make up their own minds, I *never* try to sell anything to anyone, with foo or with your type of numbers bullshit. I give a 30 day refund service so people can buy with no risk and decide in large time frame what to do. I treat them as individuals and as experts, because that is what they are because they have their own ears, and to ignore idiots like you who tell them they have *no* right of choice and their ears are deluding them. You and your like are the danger to this industry which is why I stand up to you.

Ah, that's more like it. That's the Richard of old!

1. If anyone considers spending possibly £000s on kit without taking the trouble to gain a little knowledge about what will be an acceptable level of performance, they actually deserve to be hoodwinked by the foo-wallahs. A spec will give you some small insight as to whether a bit of kit will reach a minimum standard. It allows you to dismiss out of hand things like the wackier tube amps or to avoid a gross mis-matck betwee amps & speakers. It is NOT a substitute for audition.

Of course, being a, shall I say, "intuitional" designer & manufacturer, it is very much in your interest to promote the "fu*k the science, just listen to what I say, especially after I or someone like me has filled your head with new-age audiophoolery claptrap. Don't trust the science, because I am either too ignorant to know what is happening or too much of a charlatan to care. I will be your guru and light the way to audio heaven for you. And when I've finished, I'll take you next door to the Scientologists and they can relieve you of even more of your cash.

2. Of course the example I quoted was ridiculous. It was meant to be. But no more ridiculous than saying that putting kit in an acrylic case makes an audible difference! No one has suggested that my example has been put forward as a route to audio Nirvana, but plenty of equally loopy things have.

3. My objectivism is merely rationalism. If I percieve a difference in the sound of a system purportng to have been caused by a change in that system, I want to know what has changed, and what caused it. If no other evidence of change is forthcoming, I will try to reproduce the change under blind conditions. So far, with 100% consistency, the changes for which there is no rational explanation other than a psychological one disappear under blind conditions. I freely acknowledge that I am as capable of hearing imaginary differences as the next man. It is for this I employ blind testing. It goes some way to removing the non -sonic influences which colour our perception of sound. That way, I do not end up wasting money on wanky cables or other snake oil.

4. Richard Dunne talking about reality? Learning that you were a serious stoner in your youth actully went a long way to explaining your fantasies and instability.
Come on, Richard, you live in your own little audio version of Mormonism. You publish missives on hi fi fora based purely on your opinion. You can seldom back up your opinion with any evidence other than what you believe you hear. Richard, opinion is not evidence. And when challenged to prove you assertions under blind conditions, you bluster your way out of it. You are like a priest giving a sermon on transubstantiation. You can offer no explanation for it other than your faith in their existence. Well, I don't buy that kind of weak-minded thinking from priests and I don't buy it from you either.

And, in answer to your question as to whether I think someone who hears a difference in sound purely because, say, there are no metal screws in an amplifier case is deluded, you bet your sweet ass I am!

And, coming from someone who is hell bent on promoting the irrational and imaginary, your comment on the hi-fi dark ages is particularly rich.

And this time no lily-livered smileys.


Regards,

Chris

 

[Mescalito]

This claptrap just show everyone who and what you are, some sort of twisted individual with twisted logic. You don't seem to realise that everything written here is just insulting all the member of this forum apart from your little happy band of extreme objectivists. You are telling the members that they have no right to listen to their music unless they achieve your dictated level of understanding of silly expensive boxes that tell you something is working to design spec and little else.

You tell them they are deluded because they do not have the knowledge of those boxes and what they do, like you do!

You tell them they have been and will be hoodwinked by foo-wallahs! because they don't know how to use a distortion analyser or scope or "think" they understand the numbers they are being given.

Sorry you are the deluded foo-wallah, deluded by your own ego into thinking your knowledge of how to use those boxes makes you superior to people who use their ears. Your arrogance is astounding.

And that is what you have now just clearly shown everyone.

Now to the personal comments. I have never once told people what to do, even if they inquire to me and ask me if they should buy my products I tell them to make up their own minds, I *never* try to sell anything to anyone, with foo or with your type of numbers bullshit. I give a 30 day refund service so people can buy with no risk and decide in large time frame what to do. I treat them as individuals and as experts, because that is what they are because they have their own ears, and to ignore idiots like you who tell them they have *no* right of choice and their ears are deluding them. You and your like are the danger to this industry which is why I stand up to you.

Richard, don't use words you don't understand. Logic is not something you have even a passing aquaintance with.

You carry on in your own little fantasy world, mate.

Me, I prefer the warts & all reality.

Chris

 

[Mescalito]

There's really no way around it Richard. Seeing what gear you are listening to can only bias what you hear, not seeing it cannot effect the same bias.

So removing the potential source of sighted bias can only help you towards making a decision on sonic grounds alone. it really is that simple, the logic is irrefutable.

If you prefer to have your component selection affected by what preconceptions you have about a certain piece of gear rather than chosen solely on how it sounds, then by all means dismiss the benefit of unsighted selection.

There's no shame in a person saying that bought something based on how it looks and how that makes them feel about it, and how that affects what they hear. None at all. Plenty of people live under all sorts of pre-conceived delusional ideas that dictate their day to day lives. (FFS you think you are actually a hifi designer).

Oooh.....miaow......!!!

Don't you know richard studied for years in the University of Life?

Chris

Chris

 

[Richard Dunn]

There's really no way around it Richard. Seeing what gear you are listening to can only bias what you hear, not seeing it cannot effect the same bias.

So removing the potential source of sighted bias can only help you towards making a decision on sonic grounds alone. it really is that simple, the logic is irrefutable.

If you prefer to have your component selection affected by what preconceptions you have about a certain piece of gear rather than chosen solely on how it sounds, then by all means dismiss the benefit of unsighted selection.

There's no shame in a person saying that bought something based on how it looks and how that makes them feel about it, and how that affects what they hear. None at all. Plenty of people live under all sorts of pre-conceived delusional ideas that dictate their day to day lives. (FFS you think you are actually a hifi designer).

Go and take a test drive on your next new car with a blindfold on then.

 

[Richard Dunn]

Richard, don't use words you don't understand. Logic is not something you have even a passing aquaintance with.

You carry on in your own little fantasy world, mate.

Me, I prefer the warts & all reality.

Chris

OK so a member here buys themselves some cheap test gear, or buys and reads a book by someone who thinks they know what the numbers mean. Armed with this knowledge they try two bits of equipment and the one they enjoy more has the worse numbers, which one should they buy?

 

[RobHolt]

OK so a member here buys themselves some cheap test gear, or buys and reads a book by someone who thinks they know what the numbers mean. Armed with this knowledge they try two bits of equipment and the one they enjoy more has the worse numbers, which one should they buy?

The one with the worse numbers, because whatever it is doing wrong is subjectively appealing to them. Nothing wrong with that at all.

What's important is that they understand their preference, that the cause can be explained and repeated, and that it isn't down to someone telling them a good story about what might be happening.

 

[Richard Dunn]

The one with the worse numbers, because whatever it is doing wrong is subjectively appealing to them. Nothing wrong with that at all.

What's important is that they understand their preference, that the cause can be explained and repeated, and that it isn't down to someone telling them a good story about what might be happening.

But they understand their preference perfectly well, they don't need to explain it, and anyway the objective explanation is devalued because obviously the numbers don't represent *that persons* reality.

That is another problem and argument about the bullshitters and you know what I think about that, and the arch subjectivists like Linn turned out to be the biggest bullshitters of the lot to the point they nearly took over the industry, and they may well have done if they hadn't been so stupid as to alienate Naim and try to produce their own amps - just bloody greedy. But numbers and objectivism is not the cure for their bullshit. It is because the industry was so numbers and objectivist based in the 60's and early 70's that reviewers didn't even listen to products they just measured them, and the likes of Mescalito and Basil want to take us back to that stupidity, and it was that stupidity that left the industry open to the flat earth take-over.

Why do we have to go from extreme to extreme, why does the industry and the poor hobbyist have to be continually subjected to this. We don't need complete objectivism or complete subjectivism as extremes they are both b*llocks. What we need is things to be where they belong. I need numbers and objective criteria because I design and build and repair products. You need them because you decided you want them and you have made it part of your hobby, but the vast majority of people here are not you and me, they need numbers and test gear like they need a telegraph pole up their bum, in other words they don't. I see you over and over again misinterpreting what your gear and number are telling you (from my experience) so why inflict it on people who wouldn't have a clue how to interpret it unless *you* and other dominate them and tell them how it should be interpreted then you are as big a bullshitter as the ones you complain about.

 

[bottleneck]

Why do we have to go from extreme to extreme, why does the industry and the poor hobbyist have to be continually subjected to this.

Best thing you've ever written Richard (IMHO).

There is a place for both increasing understanding, and simply being knocked to the floor with your mouth wide open.

Here is the system (again) that was a road to damascus moment for me .. 'knocked to the floor' some 5 years ago, and I'm still recovering.

the technical understanding part? ...well they say imitation is the most sincere form of flattery.

 

[jcbrum]

Nice rug, ......... it really ties the room together.

Waddya think Joe ?

 

[sq225917]

Go and take a test drive on your next new car with a blindfold on then.

Richard, I'm unsure how you drive, 'apart from people mental', but I need my eyes open to do it. Perhaps you have the benefit of divine intervention of some cosmic ying/yang inner-sight to help guide you around roundabouts and suchlike. I however make do with my eyes. When I buy a car stereo then I might think about using my ears.

 

[lindsayt]

...That is another problem and argument about the bullshitters and you know what I think about that, and the arch subjectivists like Linn turned out to be the biggest bullshitters of the lot to the point they nearly took over the industry, and they may well have done if they hadn't been so stupid as to alienate Naim and try to produce their own amps - just bloody greedy...

Linn bullshitters?

You mean I don't need a fixed headshell to ensure a rigid tonearm to ensure the best possible sound?

And a belt to isolate the motor to eliminate the rumble of an idler and the cogging of a direct drive?

Any tt without a springy suspension has got to be compromised due to the lack of isolation from speaker vibration. Surely?

Don't forget to do all your bolts up really tightly for maximum rigidity and tunefulness too.

Restricting the tt to 33 1/3 is good too as it avoids the compromises required for 45rpm.

And cartridges sound best if they're attached via 3 bolts. It's the 3 legged stool principle.

A wooden armboard attached via small lossy woodscrews to a steel chassis is best for resonances too.

A felt mat provides better support than a ribbed rubber mat - which is the epitomy of a bad sounding mat.

Any tt that doesn't have all of these features will never sound as tuneful as one that does. Will it? Surely all of this is good sound advice from Linn and not merely marketing bullshit?


Oh, hang on. I'll just go and compare the sound of my LP12 to my idler drive and direct drive, 3 speed, unsuspended, detachable headshell tt's...

 

[RobHolt]

But they understand their preference perfectly well, they don't need to explain it, and anyway the objective explanation is devalued because obviously the numbers don't represent *that persons* reality.

Ok so follow your own logic to its natural conclusion and you will see that it falls well short of providing the answers.

You say they understand their preference perfectly well, in which case the examples you give, the choices made following Linn-type indoctrination in particular, are perfectly valid.
The listener has been sat in front of a Linn TT or system and has chosen - under their own steam in the eyes of the subjectivist - to purchase it because it sounds better than the other options.

By your logic, they have chosen because they have used their ears and stated a preference. Pure subjectivism yes?

Well no.

You then say that (quite rightly IMO) that Linn were operating at the extreme end of subjectivism and full of bullshit. Yes - and it clearly had great influence on the listeners because Linn couldn't make LP12s fast enough.

You can't have it both ways.
The only way to get bullshit out of the industry is introduce control over demonstrations and promote objective testing, along with the promotion of knowledge sufficient to allow those typified in the Linn example (and that includes me as a former worshiper) to turn round and tell the bullshitters to sod off.

Why do we have to go from extreme to extreme, why does the industry and the poor hobbyist have to be continually subjected to this. We don't need complete objectivism or complete subjectivism as extremes they are both b*llocks.

The apparent extremes are the result of forum chatter, where things tend to polarise.
In reality people are rarely on the extremes. I suspect if we sat and nattered for a few hours over a pot of Oolong we'd find ourselves slightly left/right of the centre ground.

 

[RobHolt]

Linn bullshitters?

You mean I don't need a fixed headshell to ensure a rigid tonearm to ensure the best possible sound?

And a belt to isolate the motor to eliminate the rumble of an idler and the cogging of a direct drive?

Any tt without a springy suspension has got to be compromised due to the lack of isolation from speaker vibration. Surely?

Don't forget to do all your bolts up really tightly for maximum rigidity and tunefulness too.

Restricting the tt to 33 1/3 is good too as it avoids the compromises required for 45rpm.

And cartridges sound best if they're attached via 3 bolts. It's the 3 legged stool principle.

A wooden armboard attached via small lossy woodscrews to a steel chassis is best for resonances too.

A felt mat provides better support than a ribbed rubber mat - which is the epitomy of a bad sounding mat.

Any tt that doesn't have all of these features will never sound as tuneful as one that does. Will it? Surely all of this is good sound advice from Linn and not merely marketing bullshit?


Oh, hang on. I'll just go and compare the sound of my LP12 to my idler drive and direct drive, 3 speed, unsuspended, detachable headshell tt's...

.... and take off that digital watch young man..... this is a SINGLE SPEAKER DEMONSTRATION ROOM!

Oh and that telephone will have to go.

Remove that television set at once!


My God, did we really put up with all that.