Flat earther?

RobHolt said:
Sorry that just has to be imaginary, or a wind-up.

Even supposing for one moment that the internal amplifier circuits were being influenced, the effect would be incredibly small indeed and nothing like you describe.
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Carpets are soft, wooly, and warm, so it's obvious that they must make the hi fi sound that way. This effect can be overcome by using silver interconnects to brighten the sound.

Chris
 
Dave Simpson said:
Not a wind-up Rob. I rarely joke (I'm not very good at it.)

...and if imaginary, a very good parlor trick as I've known many people who've come to the same conclusion independently.
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If it influences that much then there is something seriously wrong with the case design.

I am not like Rob I don't reject out of hand both case and stand influences. It is one of the subjective criteria that cannot be measured so is easy for it to be outright rejected by the objectivists, and also some equipment will not show the same difference, either by better case design or because the difference is below the resolving potential of the system being used or a combination of both. BUT the musical effect of case and stand is loss of musical information, not Linn / Naim PRaT. I think you are confusing the two. The classic Linn / Naim sound is in the upper level of equipment capability of resolving musical information (this is not just detail) but that resolution is focused on certain aspects of that information, which creates the character, which *is* their so called PRaT.
 
Leading edge

Just want to clear up something regarding the 'leading edge' part of this thread for my own understanding. I don't see any necessary connection between the terms 'leading edge' and 'ringing'. I would have thought that the term 'leading edge' was simply an expression of the rise-time of the amp into a speaker load and no matter how fast wouldn't necessarily imply ringing. Or have I got something wrong about the term?
 
pete693 said:
Just want to clear up something regarding the 'leading edge' part of this thread for my own understanding. I don't see any necessary connection between the terms 'leading edge' and 'ringing'. I would have thought that the term 'leading edge' was simply an expression of the rise-time of the amp into a speaker load and no matter how fast wouldn't necessarily imply ringing. Or have I got something wrong about the term?
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Correct on a square wave reproduction, as seen on a 'scope, rise time and damping are like the yin and yang of amplifier speed. A very fast rise on the leading edge will often result in overshoot as the wave squares, and this is seen as an oscillation or ringing. Not only should the perfect amp rise vertically but also should not overshoot and ring or round off the square. Valve amps are terrible at reproducing square waves which is part of their sonic characteristic.

So the two are not necessarily analogous as a fast rise may but not always cause overshoot and a ringing amp can have a slow rise. A little clue, power supply impedance has a greater influence on this than people realise. This is why I said in an earlier post that the Naim voltage regulation has a great influence on this PRaT-ish sound thing.
 
Leading edge ? while reading the thread the term had me confused, to clarify, we are talking about attack, correct?


Which in the make-up of a note or sound is followed by the decay, then the sustain and finally the release of the note (or sound) ? All of which are highly variable, of course.

Now correct me if im wrong, the equipment is not actually changing the shape of the attack, only the way in which it is percived, right ?




(Im just trying to keep up with these in-depth debates, so apolagies if i sound like a loon ;))
 
Richard Dunn said:
If it influences that much then there is something seriously wrong with the case design.

I am not like Rob I don't reject out of hand both case and stand influences. It is one of the subjective criteria that cannot be measured so is easy for it to be outright rejected by the objectivists, and also some equipment will not show the same difference, either by better case design or because the difference is below the resolving potential of the system being used or a combination of both. BUT the musical effect of case and stand is loss of musical information, not Linn / Naim PRaT. I think you are confusing the two. The classic Linn / Naim sound is in the upper level of equipment capability of resolving musical information (this is not just detail) but that resolution is focused on certain aspects of that information, which creates the character, which *is* their so called PRaT.
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Again, Linn and Naim PR&T as you refer to it is musical information that others lose IMO. This information is part of what you hear when listening to live music and absent from playback with most of the gear on the market. It's not unique to Linn or Naim.

Btw, thanks for acknowledging my observation instead of cowering behind a science book or the In Crowd.
 
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Dave Simpson said:
Again, Linn and Naim PR&T as you refer to it is musical information that others lose IMO. This information is part of what you hear when listening to live music and absent from playback with most of the gear on the market. It's not unique to Linn or Naim.
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You really are stuck in a time warp, yes Linn and Naim systems do provide some information but it is not the information as recorded, it is an artifice. Now that is true to a degree for all Hi-Fi most largely by accident or due to lack of understanding. In the Linn / Naim case it was a synergy selection of product between the design of the LP12 or as I should say Ariston RD11 and the original Naim circuit design, a deliberate marketing process initiated by Ivor T. To that was added the deliberately created synergy of the Linn and then the Naim designs of speakers which brought us to the point that the miss balance and counter adjustment within this system synergy meant any component substitution to a product with a more accurate presentation of the music created a negative effect.

So as long as you continue to consider your system as correct virtually nothing substituted will improve on what you call PRaT. Now I know of one substitution that will change this but I am committed to being here as a non trade member even if forced to declare as one, so I will not suggest it, but if you PM me I will, and arrange for you to experience it.
 
I appreciate the offer Richard, but to be honest, I'm not in the market for a new system. However, if I were, NVA would be near the top of my list.

Even if we disagree on how how to achieve musical satisfaction, it's clear you understand that this is the goal as opposed to hitting some set of technical specifications.

regards,

dave
 
You see you are blind and lock minded, that is the brainwash that has created the sheep like you, you don't even know what I am suggesting yet you reject it out of hand, you really are beyond hope of redemption.

You should put a new header on your mails "closed minded and brainwashed sheep" then at least readers would know how to treat your opinions.

EDIT :- Ok I have PM so we will see if there is an opening for a ***** of light.
 
Richard Dunn said:
If it influences that much then there is something seriously wrong with the case design.

I am not like Rob I don't reject out of hand both case and stand influences. It is one of the subjective criteria that cannot be measured so is easy for it to be outright rejected by the objectivists, and also some equipment will not show the same difference, either by better case design or because the difference is below the resolving potential of the system being used or a combination of both. BUT the musical effect of case and stand is loss of musical information, not Linn / Naim PRaT. I think you are confusing the two. The classic Linn / Naim sound is in the upper level of equipment capability of resolving musical information (this is not just detail) but that resolution is focused on certain aspects of that information, which creates the character, which *is* their so called PRaT.
Click to expand...

I also don't reject stand effect out of hand. I'm rejecting it in this instance because we are told that placing a Naim amplifier on the carpet makes it sound like a 'syrupy' valve amplifier.

It can be proven to be nonsense in a minute or so by simply moving the (playing) amplifier onto the floor and asking those present to comment on any change to the sound (not actually seeing the amplifier moved of course...)
I know the answer and so do you.
In fact perhaps we'll do such an experiment at the London Show in the amplifier room.

That Dave should suggest that such a fundamental effect can take place does much to discredit moderate subjectivism, as you yourself have said.
This is a classic example of extreme subjectivism and it harms your cause.
 
RobHolt said:
I also don't reject stand effect out of hand. I'm rejecting it in this instance because we are told that placing a Naim amplifier on the carpet makes it sound like a 'syrupy' valve amplifier.

It can be proven to be nonsense in a minute or so by simply moving the (playing) amplifier onto the floor and asking those present to comment on any change to the sound (not actually seeing the amplifier moved of course...)
I know the answer and so do you.
In fact perhaps we'll do such an experiment at the London Show in the amplifier room.

That Dave should suggest that such a fundamental effect can take place does much to discredit moderate subjectivism, as you yourself have said.
This is a classic example of extreme subjectivism and it harms your cause.
Click to expand...

Agreed.
 
Rob,

Placing stock (un-modified) Naim CDPs, amps and power supplies directly on carpet eliminates all traces of harshness, leading edge, whatever you wish to call it and has the system mimic the soft, syrupy sound of an all tube setup.

I'm confident that carpet in the UK doesn't have special properties different from carpet here in the US. Since I've tried it with a variety of Naim systems, speakers and rooms, I'm even more confident you or someone in your group will hear what I'm on about.

Good luck with your show as well!

regards,

dave
 
conisby said:
Leading edge ? while reading the thread the term had me confused, to clarify, we are talking about attack, correct?

Which in the make-up of a note or sound is followed by the decay, then the sustain and finally the release of the note (or sound) ? All of which are highly variable, of course.

Now correct me if im wrong, the equipment is not actually changing the shape of the attack, only the way in which it is percived, right ?

(Im just trying to keep up with these in-depth debates, so apolagies if i sound like a loon ;))
Click to expand...

The leading edge can be changed both objectively and subjectively, the only fly in the ointment is they don't necessarily correlate.
 
Dave Simpson said:
Rob,

Placing stock (un-modified) Naim CDPs, amps and power supplies directly on carpet eliminates all traces of harshness, leading edge, whatever you wish to call it and has the system mimic the soft, syrupy sound of an all tube setup.
Click to expand...

Yes Dave, and tapping an egg three times on your forehead before boiling makes it taste better.

One extra grain of sugar in your coffee makes it taste too sweet, and throwing a cup of water into the Atlantic risks a tidal wave.

Someone somewhere will make an argument for all three. Doesn't make them any more likely.
 
Richard Dunn said:
The leading edge can be changed both objectively and subjectively, the only fly in the ointment is they don't necessarily correlate.
Click to expand...

Agreed.

Let the extremists on both sides observe that there is a great deal of overlap and common ground from both (reasonable) sides of the fence :)
 
Richard Dunn said:
The leading edge can be changed both objectively and subjectively, the only fly in the ointment is they don't necessarily correlate.
Click to expand...

By adjusting the square wave response? Won't that have an adverse effect on measured abilty of the system to produce all frequencies in the same phase and amplitude?
 

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